flyvulcan Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 All this grief about Jabiru engines also leads one to wonder whether all the 2 stroke or auto conversion powered aircraft will receive the same treatment from CASA because the stats could possibly indicate that their failure rate is higher than Jabs. Ron Wantaja's stats in the US indicate that the failure rate of 2 strokes is appreciably higher than for Jabs. But then again, failure modes are not specified in those stats... What is of concern to me is that it's possible that this rather heavy handed proposal by CASA could be the thin edge of the wedge or the start of a worrying trend. I might find that I cannot take a passenger for a ride in my Komet jet when it's finished because CASA has imposed restrictive operating conditions on my experimental aircraft... It is the process that CASA have used that is as worrying as the immediate implications for Jab owners (who I have a great deal of sympathy for at the moment). 7
frank marriott Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 At least the President of RAA made a considered and lengthy sunmission, different opinion then the press release from the CEO previously and multiple comments from one board member. He needs to get everyone representing RAA on the same page to prevent the image of a mob of amatures pulling is different directions. 5
jetjr Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 Yenn, you need to do some reading both here and http://camitaeroengines.net Yes Camit make the Jabiru engines, TO JABIRU SPEC under their certification?? They were instrumental in the design and development for a start but appears their ideas and Jabirus separted some time ago They have been working on their own variation of the engine. With serious nvestment in time and money. Plan was to certify and give owners an option. Arguably CAE have some solid skills to strengthen the engine and have done so. Jabiru are obstructive as they no doubt see a threat for some reason. Its a fairly new discussion but you can buy a full New CAE engine currently or a new core. At this point only suitable to experimental aircraft as Jabiru stopped cert process. The all new CAE engines are NOT a Jabiru and not affected by this CASA proposal. Pretty sure core engines are still a modified Jabiru CAE can make parts for certified and LSA Jabirus but cant sell them direct as i understand it. Many would like CAE to complete development process, gain their own ability to make and sell Engine parts and their own engines into LSA aircraft but that requires help from CASA. Currently they are trying to force Jabiru to do something neither party wants 1 2
Dafydd Llewellyn Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 Is Jabiru working with Camit ? Gossip I heard did not indicate this, sounded like the same head in the sand method from Jabiru ! The survey they sent to flying schools looks like a way out also ! I find it hard to be optimistic with CASA trying to destroy Australian aircraft manufacture with no regard for anyone and Jabiru with it is someone else's fault not ours now let's put our head back in the sand !I do not hold my hopes very high for Jabiru to act appropriately after the responsonse to RAA bulletin about cylinder base cracks. More interest in hours than cracks, in fact it just says cracks pose no threat ! Quote. "This investigation also revealed that the cylinder heads on the engine with the cylinder head cracks sent to us had done 2,302.4 hours TTIS and 1,244.9 hours since the previous Top End Overhaul. The hours were done in a period of 2 years 4 months. There appeared to be confusion regarding the correct method of recording engine time in the maintenance log book. Jabiru requires that Hobbs Time be the sole method by which engine time is recorded. The problem with proper recording of engine time has prompted us to release the attached Service Letter (JSL010-1) regarding Service Intervals which clarifies your obligations concerning maintenance records. " After the CFI conference I thought everything will be fine and RAA has a bright future a couple of hours later I want to walk away and forget aviation totally. It is just not worth the agony from a bunch of ignorant fools ! Pardon, but are you not confusing cylinder head cracks with cylinder base cracks? Or have I missed something? No, as far as I know, Jabiru is not working with CAMit; and moreover, CASA have not made any contact with CAMit since this draft Instrument was issued, other than to verbally confirm that the Instrument did not apply to CAE engines.
Camel Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 Pardon, but are you not confusing cylinder head cracks with cylinder base cracks? Or have I missed something? You are correct, my mistake. No, as far as I know, Jabiru is not working with CAMit; and moreover, CASA have not made any contact with CAMit since this draft Instrument was issued, other than to verbally confirm that the Instrument did not apply to CAE engines. This is sad as Camit are keen to manufacture improved engines and if they were improving / making engines for Jab or assisting Jab, then it would ensure that Jabiru and Camit both survive, at this rate both might disappear.
motzartmerv Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 Why on earth would casa not open channels with the people who actually build the engines? I'm dumbfounded. 4
Dafydd Llewellyn Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 I respectfully request that Ross offer some substantiated proof of his allegation.(edited - Mod) I doubt he needs to - that will do nicely, I suspect.
Guest Ornis Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 Not relevant, I never even mentioned Jabiru's engines. All I said was CAMit's "improvements" are unproven and that only time can tell. I also mentioned I am pleased they are trying to improve matters. Maybe, but all I said was: "In my opinion CAMit has addressed the problems and made worthwhile improvements", which you challenged, so I then attempted to justify my opinion by comparing the two approaches. So, just looking at the approach to the problem of valve recession and head embedment, which, in your opinion, would be, in any hypothetical case you like, be more likely to be lead to worthwhile improvements in the first instance: 1. Introduce hydraulic lifters? (Forget the fiasco of the wrong camshaft and all those who bought duff engines.) OR 2. Improve the alloy quality and existing valve train? The phrase, "... and seek your permission before passing judgment on the engineering and ethics?" was moderated. I apologise if I misunderstood your comment. I realise now you were not criticising me, you were simply helping me to understand the need to collect data before drawing conclusion about reliability. Trouble is, I wasn't. I was making an assessment of the two different approaches. A priori.
Dafydd Llewellyn Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 This is sad as Camit are keen to manufacture improved engines and if they were improving / making engines for Jab or assisting Jab, then it would ensure that Jabiru and Camit both survive, at this rate both might disappear. I've been pointing out the risk of this for some time. If I had a -D model Jabiru, I'd be ordering a CAE engine for it and shifting it to E24 registration ASAP. 1 1 1
bexrbetter Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 Ron Wantaja's stats in the US indicate that the failure rate of 2 strokes is appreciably higher than for Jabs. But then again, failure modes are not specified in those stats... Did my first apprenticeship with Yamaha and Stihl in the 70's which of course involved a lot of 2 stroke work, 95% of failures were owner associated due to oiling mode failure; wrong type, wrong mix, stale fuel or simply forgotten to add oil. I doubt many 4 stroke failures, Rotax, Jab etc. are owner attributed in the same vain.
Dafydd Llewellyn Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 Yenn, you need to do some reading both here and http://camitaeroengines.netYes Camit make the Jabiru engines, TO JABIRU SPEC under their certification?? They were instrumental in the design and development for a start but appears their ideas and Jabirus separted some time ago They have been working on their own variation of the engine. With serious nvestment in time and money. Plan was to certify and give owners an option. Arguably CAE have some solid skills to strengthen the engine and have done so. Jabiru are obstructive as they no doubt see a threat for some reason. Its a fairly new discussion but you can buy a full New CAE engine currently or a new core. At this point only suitable to experimental aircraft as Jabiru stopped cert process. The all new CAE engines are NOT a Jabiru and not affected by this CASA proposal. Pretty sure core engines are still a modified Jabiru CAE can make parts for certified and LSA Jabirus but cant sell them direct as i understand it. Many would like CAE to complete development process, gain their own ability to make and sell Engine parts and their own engines into LSA aircraft but that requires help from CASA. Currently they are trying to force Jabiru to do something neither party wants Camit make (to order) either an experimental "core rebuilt" Jabiru engine; or a CAE experimental engine. They are the same thing, physically, because it is cheaper for CAMit to repair the Jabiru engine by 100% "repair by replacement", than to reclaim parts from an existing engine. What that means is that when you take your old engine in, the whole thing goes into the bin, and what you get is 100% new parts. If you simply order a CAE engine, there's nothing to put into the bin - that's the difference. You can check the details with CAMit, but that's my understanding.
bexrbetter Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 Maybe, but all I said was: "In my opinion CAMit has addressed the problems and made worthwhile improvements", which you challenged People offer opinions based on some sort of foundation, they have not addressed the problems until proven and for the 3rd time and last time as you just made my ignore list, only time can tell - not an opinion, fact. Do you have a brother named Oscar by the way? 1
turboplanner Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 Bex, I think there's more inbreeding here than in the Appalachians 1 1 1
Guest Ornis Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 What that means is that when you take your old engine in, the whole thing goes into the bin Actually the sump, starter motor, backplate etc are reused, but it's essentially a new engine.
Dafydd Llewellyn Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 Why on earth would casa not open channels with the people who actually build the engines? I'm dumbfounded. This is CASA you're talking about, remember. Jabiru holds the Production Certificate, so it's Jabiru they talk to. Q.E.D.
Dafydd Llewellyn Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 Actually the sump, starter motor, backplate etc are reused, but it's essentially a new engine. Ah - Thanks.
Guest Ornis Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 Ah, I see we have the "Put enough monkeys in a room with typewriters and you will get Shakespeare" approach, no predictions of success allowed until ... we have a result.
DGL Fox Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 This thread goes around and around and around...how many pages now..and still the talk goes on..and on...has this subject still not be talked to death...YET.. gezzzzzzz David 3
Geoff13 Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 So can you put a Rotax Motor in a C series J230 and use it for hire training the same as you can in a C series J160? Cheers Geoff13
facthunter Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 There may not be much reward for thinking outside the square in an organisation like the CASA. Particularly since it appears the warring parties would rather sink the ship than cooperate to save something they both depend on.. Chinese outsourcing vs plan to improve the marque here, but the relationship is broken , apparently some years ago. Am I right? Nev 1
turboplanner Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 At least you spell "Hangars" correctly David.
jetjr Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 So can you put a Rotax Motor in a C series J230 and use it for hire training the same as you can in a C series J160?Cheers Geoff13 Dont think so, no J2/400 series are certified, either homebuilt or LSA Not sure if -c means anything in larger models
Geoff13 Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 Dont think so, no J2/400 series are certified, either homebuilt or LSAIs there a J230c? There is one advertised in the members market atm.
Guest Andys@coffs Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 So can you put a Rotax Motor in a C series J230 and use it for hire training the same as you can in a C series J160?Cheers Geoff13 No!! Nope!!! Nu Uh!!! Never!!! Cant be done!!!! the 160C is an anomaly in the Jabiru line up and has a Type certificate, which means that a bunch of engineering approaches, completely divorced from the manufacturer, that are not available to LSA could be used to transplant the engines in the type certified 160. Those engineering approaches are not available to LSA aircraft and that's why Dafydd and other have been pointing out time and time again that LSA SUCKS!!!! If you want an LSA to be modified, and still want the benefits of LSA such as hire and reward, then only the OEM can approve the changes if they choose not to, then you are sh!t out of luck..... So....for the 20th time in this particular thread, and probably 200th in the site, and hopefully the very last time it is ever ASKED! NO YOU CANT! Andy P.S Geoff we went over this a week or so ago, you asked the question and I said you could always go E24 and you said...cant do that I want to put it on line..... What you have asked above is the same question again.
bexrbetter Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 No!! Nope!!! Nu Uh!!! Never!!! Cant be done!!!!NO YOU CANT! What do you mean exactly? 4
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