CASA - Draft Proposal for Jabiru Aircraft

[Guest Maj Millard]

Am I correct in saying, Jabiru have been given some time to start sorting out the problem?

Yes...

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Oh you are there Rossare you able to share any thing from the meting or is it secret ?

Which meeting Deborah.....?..

 

 

[biggles]

Ive been flying for over a 40 year period. My first valve replacement was at 100 hrs from new and the Jabiru accredited maintenance engineer who repaired and serviced my engine made the comment that this is just the start. From then on my engine has been on one hell of a interesting journey. No body has been able to tell me procedurally or maintenance wise how I am doing it wrong. Any maintenance on my aircraft has been done with and under the supervision of qualified engineers. Since 2008 what I have experienced learned and observed about the Jabiru engine is far more than I should have needed too. Having to force land due to engine failure in Crocodile country Northern Queensland I could have done without. Problem being a broken through bolt (new) and a cracked barrel. I accept there are those out there who have had a good run with their Jabs but don't knock the one that are having issues. The stories are numerous and varied. Much has been done to remedy problems and to be honest even people who are loyal and defensive of JABIRU have in many cases tweaked the engine. I am now pleased under CASA direction and with JABIRU co-operation and open mindedness this festering dilemma can be resolved. I along with many others just want to fly a Jab with a reasonable amount confidence.

Bruce ,

 

Sorry to hear about the issues with your 3300 , but could you give us a few more details eg. Mogas or Avgas operation , fuel/oil additives ,engine hours , normal operating temps ,engine monitoring , fine finned heads ,any mods , etc. etc.

 

Bob

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I mean the CASA RAA Jabiru meting.Honest question not sure if its all secret or not

Not for me to comment...Michael Monck board president has already sent a report on the outcome....have you read it ?.....additionally you can also view comments on the Jab website.....

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Bruce ,Sorry to hear about the issues with your 3300 , but could you give us a few more details eg. Mogas or Avgas operation , fuel/oil additives ,engine hours , normal operating temps ,engine monitoring , fine finned heads ,any mods , etc. etc.

Bob

This is the sort of info that should have been collected about every engine event. Anecdotes are fine, but we need reliable statistics. Is fuel a major factor? Does detonation happen with AvGas? How often do people get a bad batch of Mogas?

I'd love to use car fuel. My little Jodel was designed around a 27hp engine. Before buying my 2.2 I discussed with Jabiru people the possibility of shimming the barrels to "detune" the engine enough to allow the reliable use of lower quality car fuel. They were not supportive, but I'd like to know if this approach has merit.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Common practise with the VW air cooled engines..........called adjusting the deck height.....even gives directions for checking and doing it in VW maintenance manuals.

 

 

[turboplanner]

the solution bought up at the meeting yestearday does not involve Camit

You and Squark7700 on prune seemed to be getting good information earlier, what's gone wrong?

 

 

[jetjr]

Hope its a real fix, not patching symptoms like the through bolt issue.

 

Thats a good example of rushing an upgrade and not identifying and addressing real problem

 

That approach is partly why the problem is where its at now.

 

CASA could be pushing to have the same thing happen again

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Yep. It'll happen again. Both feet, I said.

 

 

[kgwilson]

One of our Jab SP6 owners has an early thick finned head 3300 which has about 900 hours on the clock. It has had no issues other than regular maintenance, nothing other than a CHT with the probe under the rear spark plug & it has been run on BP 95 all its life. Another with a J 230 has fiddled with it all the time, run it on just about every type of fuel available, cruises at 3000 rpm, never warms it up before takeoff & has had quite a few issues but he won't say what they are.

 

 

[Oscar]

jj - I think you mean, CASA's pushing could have the same thing happen again!.

 

They'd not be pushing to HAVE it happen again - if they had the expertise to actually know what is needed, which they have no demonstrable record of having. Gather any two CAR35/Part 21M engineers in a room and you'll probably get way too many examples of how much CASA does NOT have suitable depth of expertise. There was a meeting between CASA and a group of CAR35s a few years ago, and a quick run around the table of the 'this is me and here's my background' showed that there was MORE ex-CASA (or CASA's predecessors) experience on the CAR 35 representation than CASA itself had - and those CAR 35s had been out in the industry for many, many years..

 

Just on the through bolts issue on its own, there are at least four fairly well understood ( and almost always interlinked) causes: detonation, the case joining methodology, barrel base flange bending and the ratio of bolt pre-tension used to bolt ultimate fail strength. Inadequate radius on the base of the nuts is an 'assembly' issue. There is another factor, but that is very much something that has been established by proprietary research and as such, C-I-C. And, incidentally, the case material and method of manufacturing is absolutely NOT a contributing factor, that assertion is a piece of complete nonsense.

 

So, just on the through bolts issue alone, there is a 'systemic' response needed. To develop such a response it takes research to understand all the factors, design, manufacture and testing. All of the first three has already been done by CAMit and in-flight durability testing of that work is well advanced now, while formal certification / certifying testing was about to start when issues arose between CAMit and Jabiru that put it on hold.

 

CASA's current action has probably about a 95% chance (to be generous) of demanding a 'response' from Jabiru in a time-frame that will almost inevitably predicate a less than systemic approach. Everybody loses, yet again.

 

 

[jetjr]

Is there a solution to the certification issue for CAE?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

What ever happens, the right people are now talking about the problems.. Instead of just us all getting at each others throats about it.

 

Cheers

 

 

[Oscar]

Yes: money (and some time), but that's a simplistic answer to what is in fact a far more complex set of issues.

 

Very crudely and briefly: there are two paths. Certifying (not certification) to ASTM, requiring probably 200 hours of test running, cost likely to be round $350,000 at a minimum. Certification to JAR 22H; less test running required (only 50 hours) but there is a thicket of regulatory and legal (I.P rights, for one) hurdles to be overcome that, as things stand, make that a high-risk gamble. That level of risk could be reduced by cooperation between all parties involved (CAMit, Jabiru and CASA - and two of those parties - you can guess which ones - are not currently disposed to cooperate; that is a matter of record if you understand which 'records' you need to read).

 

 

[Bikky]

After working in remote Aboriginal communities and realising that flying was a far safer option than driving the Gunbarrel, I got over my unwarranted fear and learned to love flying, safe in the hands of some exceptional pilots. The first TIF I ever had was a Jabiru and I loved every second of it and I am still passionate about flying, although it's out of my reach at the moment.

 

I was one hour off going solo in a 160 before I decided to move to Brazil (it's a long story) and sincerely hope that all ends well for Jabiru. It's a great Australian product.

 

Sure, engine wise it could be improved, but what a fantastic, forgiving and fun aircraft it is!

 

I think it pays to bear in mind, where would we be without Jabiru?

 

 

[Russ]

What ever happens, the right people are now talking about the problems.. Instead of just us all getting at each others throats about it.Cheers

What " right people" are you referring to merv.

 

Jab have from day 1 snubbed their nose at everyone.

 

Casa , well what expertise do they still have.

 

Raa now seem to have publicly distanced themselves from the frucus ( mails telling us members to voice our frustrations to casa ) thought Raa was our voice, and their role was promoting/ defending etc our privileges .

 

That leaves Camit, as far as I can see, out there on their lonesome, just might have " the fix " but being targeted with threats etc from jab........so, who's talking to who, got me stuffed.

 

 

[Dreamliner]

With all these failure figures being branded about, could there be some way of doing an Audit on Jabiru as to number of spare parts issued, like engines, through bolts, pistons, etc, etc ?????

 

 

[reggie]

I'd be curious to know what Air/fuel mixture ratios people have been playing with. I know of people leaning mixture setting off for good economy, at what cost?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

What " right people" are you referring to merv.Jab have from day 1 snubbed their nose at everyone.

Casa , well what expertise do they still have.

 

Raa now seem to have publicly distanced themselves from the frucus ( mails telling us members to voice our frustrations to casa ) thought Raa was our voice, and their role was promoting/ defending etc our privileges .

 

That leaves Camit, as far as I can see, out there on their lonesome, just might have " the fix " but being targeted with threats etc from jab........so, who's talking to who, got me stuffed.

I mean the people who can actually make a change. Casa/raa/jab.

 

 

[jetjr]

Reggie, was an old issue, JSB 018 had good onfo and most were getting closer to correct AFR working on EGT numbers. Thats been recalled now.....not sure why.

 

Problem is the wide spread of EGT in the same engine, without 6 channel monitoring you have no idea when somethings out of limits. It even changes with load and rpm.

 

Merv, Jabiru are pushed into a corner, they will potentially release some half baked upgrade like wider cyl bases, we will all have to update at our cost to regain PAX privaledges, problems could resurface as core issues not addressed

 

Not sure what do you think CASA and RAA bring to the table?

 

With a bit of luck CAE will keep going to fix the actual problem and I will upgrade to it when time is due. Truthfully ive carried 2 pax in around 3 years.

 

LSA owners stand every chance of being on the treadmill for some time to come and no ability to swap out of Jab specified product and maintenance proceedures

 

 

[dlegg]

First step in fixing a problem is admitting a problem is actually there......

 

Looks like we're at step 1

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Who's sure of anything jetr?

 

For years we have called for something, now ' something's' happening, we are of course gunna start complaininbits the wrong something, the wrong people.. Who on earth would you suggest can make the changes? Tony abbot??

 

Start looking a the positives, maybe, just maybe they will fix the problems?!

 

An your investment might actually be worth something again.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Is there a solution to the certification issue for CAE?

If you mean, CAE core-rebuilt (which means 100% repair-by-replacement) Jabiru engines, or the equivalent scratch-built CAE version of the Jabiru engine - (really the same thing physically, but completely different from a regulatory point of view) there is certainly a regulatory path - several, in fact. However, the obstructions (as I understand the matter) are twofold:

Firstly, Jabiru does not acknowledge that Ian Bent has equal rights to the basic IP for certain Jabiru engines. That would have to change before CAMit could make Jabiru parts under its own APMA authorisation, because it would otherwise result in a legal wrangle that would ruin both parties.

 

Secondly, who would then carry the product liability for those parts of the engine that were NOT changed in the course of implementing the modifications - for example, the method of attachment of the propeller flange? One can readily visualise the dog-fight that would erupt over that.

 

So the practical effect will be, I think, that CAMit will not take the modified Jabiru engine past experimental stage; but will instead go the whole nine yards and produce a "drop-in" engine in which everything is modified, so there can be no IP or liability squabbles. It will be a second-generation engine, incorporating all that Ian Bent has learned from manufacturing 4000 odd Jabiru engines, plus his own research.

 

So now it comes down to $$$. This may require a joint venture with an aircraft manufacturer, who may - I'm speculating, here - require exclusive rights to the engine.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

The longer this mess is in the public arena the more damage is done to the brand. The simplest solution is a merger of CAMit and Jabiru. Both have much to gain- and everything to lose. Common sense maybe, but personalities are involved.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

The longer this mess is in the public arena the more damage is done to the brand. The simplest solution is a merger of CAMit and Jabiru. Both have much to gain- and everything to lose. Common sense maybe, but personalities are involved.

That is, I'm afraid, an understatement.