CASA - Draft Proposal for Jabiru Aircraft

[Guest Maj Millard]

UeYea , thats what they tell me ,

 

Unfortunatly we have a very unreliable internet from the satalite , and mobile signal comes and goes with the wind !

 

That and having 50 klm round trip to town over the worst road in country!

 

Thats the price we've payed for our own airstrip . Wouldnt have it any other way .

 

Mike

Your a lucky man Mike, that has been one of my goals for years but have yet to achieve it !.....Take care mate.

 

 

[Oscar]

So the practical effect will be, I think, that CAMit will not take the modified Jabiru engine past experimental stage; but will instead go the whole nine yards and produce a "drop-in" engine in which everything is modified, so there can be no IP or liability squabbles. It will be a second-generation engine, incorporating all that Ian Bent has learned from manufacturing 4000 odd Jabiru engines, plus his own research.

So now it comes down to $$$. This may require a joint venture with an aircraft manufacturer, who may - I'm speculating, here - require exclusive rights to the engine.

And who may well not be Australian, nor even interested in servicing the Australian market - what manufacturer would be when faced with the evidence of the success of a mob of weasels (oh, I DO apologise: 'concerned citizens') being able to slaughter their indigenous industry. Indeed, with the impending Free Trade agreements with China and expansion of the US FTA, an external supplier onto the aviation market would have more rights than CAMit or Jabiru to sell whatever they want to supply here, free of CASA hinderance.

 

Those people, and for that matter, this site, could have been effective in producing a genuine resolution to the problems. For the sake of playing the 'look at me' card, they have been a major part of the problem rather than the solution to the benefit of not just Jabiru owners and operators, but Recreational Aviation in this country. I expect this comment to be removed, due to the avowed position of the site owner and his stated editorial policies, but that does not invalidate the statement - it will just reinforce the effectiveness of selective censorship to the flow of information.

 

If you don't like the policies of this site feel free to leave anytime. Actually, you may not have a choice shortly. - Mod xox

 

 

[01rmb]

We are back to the same point - that unless Jabiru accepts the CAE modifications how does a punter like me get to fit them to his 24 registered J230?

 

CAE offer parts, overhauled engines and new engines (with 40 amp alternators, heavy duty barrels, improved rocker arms, modified oil cooler adaptors and other improvements) but they can't go in my aircraft. Hopefully Jabiru will make their own improvements (even pay Ian for his input, research and parts) but without a big investment in R&D of their own how will advancements be made? I am not sure that there are still people at Jabiru with the necessary level of knowledge and ability.

 

I was idealistically hoping that CASA would step in and help somehow here by providing a means to make reliability improvements and not lose my registration. But as you say, maybe, the real problem is the product liability question.

 

I would have my aircraft in Bundaberg tomorrow for an upgrade if I knew that it would be x times more reliable and I could still register it.

 

 

[jetjr]

Merv we argued this for ages.

 

Only one not looking for a fix are Jabiru, they say the problem isn't as serious as made out to be and right or wrong numbers back this.

 

Owners, FTF, Rotec and CAE are all on board. Seems to be some idea that by getting to this point or this path more will happen than is already underway.

 

Im making the same point I always have

 

Some think this current track see LESS chance of proper fix than we had last week. The whole time owners are paying for another round of patch ups simply to keep Casa happy for a year or two.

 

Im led to believe the through bolt upgrade concept didnt come from engine dept but was done under pressure to lower failure rates, couple years later here we are. Jabiru and owners must have spent big on this with not much result if you say through bolts still breaking.

 

Im not convinced that JABIRU have the skills let alone the true will to rectify the problem in house.

 

CASA can assist CAE through reg hurdles and sort out STC process, market will get Jabiru on board.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

After working in remote Aboriginal communities and realising that flying was a far safer option than driving the Gunbarrel, I got over my unwarranted fear and learned to love flying, safe in the hands of some exceptional pilots. The first TIF I ever had was a Jabiru and I loved every second of it and I am still passionate about flying, although it's out of my reach at the moment.I was one hour off going solo in a 160 before I decided to move to Brazil (it's a long story) and sincerely hope that all ends well for Jabiru. It's a great Australian product.

Sure, engine wise it could be improved, but what a fantastic, forgiving and fun aircraft it is!

 

I think it pays to bear in mind, where would we be without Jabiru?

Well I'm sure we would survive without Jab one way or another, however their contribution will be much more positive once the engine reliability is improved. Hopefully right now heading in the right direction....time will tell. I flew through the 80s and 90s with unreliable engine that killed many good pilots.........we should certainly be well beyond that now in 2014.

 

 

[geoffreywh]

I cannot see Jabiru attitudes toward Jabiru engine operators changing soon in any meaningful way. I am (almost) certain they will continue to do things as they have always done. That is, bring in changes to address symptoms, charge the customer and say it's the operators/maintenance guys fault. I actually saw recently, a new, (4 cyl) replacement engine, break a through bolt and crack a barrel within 20 hours of fitting. Where's the maintainers fault there? I cant really see how Jab flyers can get their passenger rights back without replacing the existing engine with a new Camit engine? (should it ever be certified) ...The Jabiru jobby is not consistant enough at this time. If Ian Brent shares his Jab development expertise with Jabiru then I would be really surprised, I mean flabbergasted!.....

 

 

[jetjr]

A left of centre idea

 

How about crowd funding CAE

 

Prospective buyers stump up deposit now, recieve engine developed to a certain point with some benefits in price?? Would expedite it and enable CAE to avoid unwanted JV.

 

Might show Ian confidence in the product and provide money to forward the work and testing to certification.

 

Just an idea?

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

A left of centre ideaHow about crowd funding CAE

Prospective buyers stump up deposit now, recieve engine developed to a certain point with some benefits in price?? Would expedite it and enable CAE to avoid unwanted JV.

 

Might show Ian confidence in the product and provide money to forward the work and testing to certification.

 

Just an idea?

I have seen figures of at least $400k to certify the 3300 engine alone..I would think it would go to at least half a mil.......that's a lot of member contributions, and if it did all work out well then what price the engine at that point to recoup the large investment ?.........

 

 

[Oscar]

The longer this mess is in the public arena the more damage is done to the brand. The simplest solution is a merger of CAMit and Jabiru. Both have much to gain- and everything to lose. Common sense maybe, but personalities are involved.

Jabiru has exhausted its 'development' path -short of major changes. CAMit has undertaken the research and development essential to produce the necessary improvements, at its own expense, that exists right now for production once testing has been done and signed off, but Jabiru holds the necessary paperwork for the application of those developments. a 'merger' won't happen,but 'co-existence' could; that is in Jabiru's ballcourt to accomplish. CASA cannot force a marriage there.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

, market will get Jabiru on board.

How tho? The Market has been screaming at them for years. I know I have!!!

 

 

[gandalph]

First step in fixing a problem is admitting a problem is actually there......Looks like we're at step 1

And the next step is identifying the cause of the problem , which is not always the same thing as the result of the problem.

 

So much of the heat in these debates have been about the result, with not much seeming to be done to identify the cause.

 

 

[Guest jabiru]

Now this has troubled me for sometime!when in the automotive industry a failure occurs and it is the manufacturers fault, a recall at the cost of the Manufacturer takes place,with Jabiru and Jabiru engines we will send you the part(at full Price) and at your cost you had it installed???

 

 

 

NO RECALL here !!!

 

 

 

Regards Shaun.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Oscar, just to clarify the situation, you, if you are a member of RAA wrote directly to CASA and (if reported correctly) expressed concern with a growing risk, and asked CASA to carry out their function. RAA was in possession of the only full statistics, and CASA receive those statistics progressively, and would already have had the same statistics as RAA.

 

In my opinion RAA acted prudently, rather than waiting for CASA to get in first, and the present action looks a LOT more professional than the Audit saga.

 

The letter from RAA was reported here some weeks/months ago, and I can't recall anyone raising any objection to it.

 

So the situation is that RAA becoming aware of a risk trend, took action to report that risk to the appropriate Authority to address it.

 

CASA were not set up to move on an industry as a result of comments by either Motz or weasels.

 

What CASA have done is produce a Draft, as they produced a Draft recently for Angel Flight which met with a similar hysterical response.

 

For those who don't understand what a Draft is, is is a document for discussion/checking which is open to change.

 

I understand the people in the Angel Flight community are happy with their outcome, and following the first meeting regarding this draft, positive reports are coming through, and the process appears to be continuing along the paths the industry would expect.

 

Some people, with the limited statistics made public, have suggested there have not been fatalities or enough fatalities to warrant any action, but these days you can't even wait for one death when a risk profile develops, you have to act immediately. Here's a link showing the predicament of a young woman, an award winner who has been charged with Manslaughter. Like the present situation, she'd had no previous incidents.. Note that she has only been charged at this stage, not convicted

 

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/telstra-young-businesswoman-of-the-year-torie-mackinnon-charged-with-manslaughter-20140903-10brau.html

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

We are back to the same point - that unless Jabiru accepts the CAE modifications how does a punter like me get to fit them to his 24 registered J230?CAE offer parts, overhauled engines and new engines (with 40 amp alternators, heavy duty barrels, improved rocker arms, modified oil cooler adaptors and other improvements) but they can't go in my aircraft. Hopefully Jabiru will make their own improvements (even pay Ian for his input, research and parts) but without a big investment in R&D of their own how will advancements be made? I am not sure that there are still people at Jabiru with the necessary level of knowledge and ability.

 

I was idealistically hoping that CASA would step in and help somehow here by providing a means to make reliability improvements and not lose my registration. But as you say, maybe, the real problem is the product liability question.

 

I would have my aircraft in Bundaberg tomorrow for an upgrade if I knew that it would be x times more reliable and I could still register it.

Personal view, not RAAus Board views......

 

You speak as though there is simply NO way forward and I don't see it that way myself. You have a 24 Registered aircraft that can only remain that way if you do as the manufacturer says, you have to in his owners manuals etc. I think you have the option of installing an unapproved modification and asking as a result (to be clear before the next flight) to be reclassified as E24. Any Downsides, yep you cant put it on line for hire/reward, and others that pretty well align themselves to restrictions currently applying to the 19 equivalent's

 

Some will see this as completely unacceptable, others will ask what's the way back if you at a later stage determine you again want to fly a fully conforming LSA aircraft, so back to plain old 24 registration, what impact on resale etc... For others it gives a way forward.

 

Certainly might be worth a conversation with our Techman if you were seriously to consider....

 

That all said my 230 is a 19 registered aircraft and as such the ins and outs of LSA haven't applied to me so maybe my understanding of LSA is wrong and what I have posted above is all wrong.... Check with the Techman because at the end of the day only his view counts in the court of "will the transaction occur".....

 

Andy

 

 

[ahlocks]

Oscar, just to clarify the situation, you,

Oscar has earned himself a little holiday Tubz. He'll be back in a week..... maybe

 

 

[Admin]

Oscar has earned himself a little holiday Tubz. He'll be back in a week..... maybe

If it is ok with you Locks, and the other mods, but I made it 2 weeks, an extra week for 2nd offence

 

 

[Guest Bruce Knowles]

Bruce ,Sorry to hear about the issues with your 3300 , but could you give us a few more details eg. Mogas or Avgas operation , fuel/oil additives ,engine hours , normal operating temps ,engine monitoring , fine finned heads ,any mods , etc. etc.

Bob

Hello Bob no problem with the History

My Jab 430 built experiemental cat. Bundaberg 2008 did the required 25 hrs and craft was cleared via Bundaberg Jab factory before journey home

 

on reflection from the onset head temp has been a challenge

 

Always run engine fuel flow over 23 litres/hr

 

Fuel Predominately AVGAS as advised Jabiru no fuel oil aditives

 

now total engine hours on motor 630 hrs with two top end engine rebuilds and as a consequence numerous head aches and worry

 

Fine finned heads reverted back to solid lifters

 

Now have fitted Rotec LCH and with refinements over time now are working well normal temps mid 80 to 90

 

I could go on

 

With proven mechanical and practiced procedures there is an in-expensive fix that could be applied for the Jabiru engine that will make it more reliable but it needs people in the know to bang heads together

 

perhaps some key individuals need to stand aside so progress can be made

 

I'm sure its now in the Jab communities interest that this happens I mean to say there is a big investment out there

 

Hey I really love my Jab

 

In my opinion structurally and practically the best plane in its class on the market confusing isn't it

 

BruceK

 

 

[jetjr]

How tho? The Market has been screaming at them for years. I know I have!!!

Yep for some people your right, others are flying around just fine and getting pretty good backup from Jab. Seems the more you yell the less you get. Market has also been strongly buying their planes too

If Jab dont follow market cues then they will go backwards. Remember thats their choice, their money, good luck to them.

 

IF there was a parallel path for owners of LSA for parts and modifications, these issues wouldnt depend on Jabiru cooperation any more

 

 

[motzartmerv]

jetr, you said that the "market will get jabiru on board".

 

My position is that "the market" has not gotten jabiru on board to date, if it had, then we wouldnt be getting these un precedented actions being proposed by the regulator.

 

The argument that plenty are getting good service is NO argument at all. Its no argument to say that some are getting what THEY SHOULD BE getting from a certified engine. So they should be getting it.

 

So we ALL should be getting, but clearly are not.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Well, ta-ta. Too much bias on this website for me. Thanks to those of you who have provided me with useful information.

 

 

[Russ]

Damn....there goes a good man. This sites loss. ( probably not the last either )

 

 

[Downunder]

Has Jabiru out grown it's management?

 

Quite a number of companies have been started by very talented individuals who have known when to step back and employ skilled managers and boards.

 

Do Jabiru's owners have too much "emotion"in the company to make rational decisions?

 

Sad to see you go Dafydd. Enjoyed you contributions greatly.

 

 

[Guest john]

Has Jabiru out grown it's management?Quite a number of companies have been started by very talented individuals who have known when to step back and employ skilled managers and boards.

Do Jabiru's owners have too much "emotion"in the company to make rational decisions?

 

Sad to see you go Dafydd. Enjoyed you contributions greatly.

The actions of the meeting yesterday between CASA & Jabiru have obviously been fruitful from the outside looking in, & it appears that CASA have now extended an olive branch to Jabiru so as to give them an opportunity to get their house in order, otherwise there will be forthcoming consequences such as the published draft proposal or more drastic action.

In order to keep the Jabiru fleet flying in the future throughout the world, without future draconian actions by CASA or RAA, the time has now come where both Jabiru & Camit are at the crossroads, & it now requires both of these Companies to put aside personality issues & form a commercial type joint venture because both of these Companies are true blue Aussie Companies that are controlled & managed by genuine true blue dinky dye good Aussies & it would be a disaster to see either of these Companies fold because of politics. If this proposed joint venture doesn't evolve then it will be at the peril of both of these Companies which will then flow onto Jabiru owners & pilots

 

 

[Roscoe]

Yes...

Email from Jabiru states " for the present the Draft Consultative paper is not effective"......or words to that effect.

 

 

[Keith Page]

What " right people" are you referring to merv.Jab have from day 1 snubbed their nose at everyone.

Casa , well what expertise do they still have.

 

Raa now seem to have publicly distanced themselves from the frucus ( mails telling us members to voice our frustrations to casa ) thought Raa was our voice, and their role was promoting/ defending etc our privileges .

 

That leaves Camit, as far as I can see, out there on their lonesome, just might have " the fix " but being targeted with threats etc from jab........so, who's talking to who, got me stuffed.

Oh!

 

After a bit of wacking --- it is a big surprise who starts talking and co-operating with each other, the natural servival techniques kick in. You know the saying "Strang bed fellows".

 

No one on this forum is realy up to speed, as to the happening behing the scenes.. There is a lot happening behind the scenes at this moment.

 

Regards

 

KP.