CASA - Draft Proposal for Jabiru Aircraft

[geoffreywh]

I fear that the "Happening behind the Scenes" is Jabiru wriggling off the reliability requirement hook, You could be forgiven if you thought that CASA showed a big stick to Ja. and Ja. said briefly "hit me with that and I'll not play" To which CASA would have replied " All right then, go out and play but promise you wont don't ever do it again!" With that what happened in the past will continue to happen going forward...... (god I hate buzz words)

 

 

[Keith Page]

Well, ta-ta. Too much bias on this website for me. Thanks to those of you who have provided me with useful information.

Come on Dafydd we need you,, get yourself a good cuppa and regroup your thoughts and return with a new vigor.

 

I know the fealing when we think we are just head butting the wall and getting no where because the world is full of turkeys.

 

Reset your direction and come back refreshed.

 

Regards

 

KP.

 

 

[Keith Page]

After the wacking ......There would be ultimatums put place and there would be compliance.. Or else..

 

Flick yourself around to the marketing aspect, if the ultimatums are not executed there will be no bragging of complying with the altimatium. What a good marketing ploy to say all the ultimatums are complied with.

 

Regards

 

KP.

 

 

[01rmb]

Personal view, not RAAus Board views......You speak as though there is simply NO way forward and I don't see it that way myself. You have a 24 Registered aircraft that can only remain that way if you do as the manufacturer says, you have to in his owners manuals etc. I think you have the option of installing an unapproved modification and asking as a result (to be clear before the next flight) to be reclassified as E24. Any Downsides, yep you cant put it on line for hire/reward, and others that pretty well align themselves to restrictions currently applying to the 19 equivalent's

 

Some will see this as completely unacceptable, others will ask what's the way back if you at a later stage determine you again want to fly a fully conforming LSA aircraft, so back to plain old 24 registration, what impact on resale etc... For others it gives a way forward.

 

Certainly might be worth a conversation with our Techman if you were seriously to consider....

 

That all said my 230 is a 19 registered aircraft and as such the ins and outs of LSA haven't applied to me so maybe my understanding of LSA is wrong and what I have posted above is all wrong.... Check with the Techman because at the end of the day only his view counts in the court of "will the transaction occur".....

 

Andy

I hardly think there is no way forward, but, under the current regulations the options are limited since I can't employ modifications not approved by Jabiru if I want to retain my 24 registration.

I have a 24 registered jabiru and want to retain the 24 registration so I can continue to use my aircraft for hire but would like the best of any possible reliability solutions on offer which may include something not from Jabiru such as those from CAMit. The regulations restrict me from being able to adopt them - I was just saying that would not be the case if the regulator wanted to change the current policy. Surely safety improvements should be supported above some policy.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

No, no criticism, I was saying simply that there was a possible way forward if prepare to leave 24 behind. You said you have it on line so that's not a solution acceptable to you....which is perfectly understandable.

 

Andy

 

 

[webbm]

I fear that the "Happening behind the Scenes" is Jabiru wriggling off the reliability requirement hook, You could be forgiven if you thought that CASA showed a big stick to Ja. and Ja. said briefly "hit me with that and I'll not play" To which CASA would have replied " All right then, go out and play but promise you wont don't ever do it again!" With that what happened in the past will continue to happen going forward...... (god I hate buzz words)

Given what they did to RA-AUS to force them to get their house in order, I don't have the same fear.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I fear that the "Happening behind the Scenes" is Jabiru wriggling off the reliability requirement hook, You could be forgiven if you thought that CASA showed a big stick to Ja. and Ja. said briefly "hit me with that and I'll not play" To which CASA would have replied " All right then, go out and play but promise you wont don't ever do it again!" With that what happened in the past will continue to happen going forward...... (god I hate buzz words)

Geoff,. . . .( Hope I can call you that as we've not met yet. . . .) I agree about the buzzwords, [ sorry . . . .no useful input about Rod Stiff or CASA or anything else, [too remote here in the UK. . . . .] "Going Forward". . . and crap like that really gets my Goat ( sorry Goats ) and another thing,. . .when a Scientist or Political analyst is asked a question,. . .Why oh Why do they start a sentence with the word "so". . . This is "SO" gramatically BLOODY WRONG but it seems to be pervading most areas of media and political statements nowadays, or am I just an old fart who can't keep up with doublespeak,. . . . Dunno. . . . .

 

Nothing to add on the JABIRU subject, we have a few of them in the UK, and a mate of mine has just bought one,. . . . . I hope that the current atmosphere does not result in his inability to get factory support if it ever goes wrong, BUT of course, there must be a UK distributor who will look after these concerns. . . .(?) Hope so, and I hope it all turns out well for the many owners of that type in Australia,. . .me, I wouldn't buy one as I'm too effing big to get into that tiny office,. . . . . . . why did a company based in a country with wide open spaces design an aircraft with a cockpit only sufficient for bloody midgets ? ? Best of luck selling them in the USA, where the average Joe ( or JoAnne ) weighs in at around 190 Kilos. . . . . ( A BIG MAC in the USA requires a fork lift truck to deliver it to the table. . . . )

 

Phil

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Ive been flying for over a 40 year period. My first valve replacement was at 100 hrs from new and the Jabiru accredited maintenance engineer who repaired and serviced my engine made the comment that this is just the start. From then on my engine has been on one hell of a interesting journey. No body has been able to tell me procedurally or maintenance wise how I am doing it wrong. Any maintenance on my aircraft has been done with and under the supervision of qualified engineers. Since 2008 what I have experienced learned and observed about the Jabiru engine is far more than I should have needed too. Having to force land due to engine failure in Crocodile country Northern Queensland I could have done without. Problem being a broken through bolt (new) and a cracked barrel. I accept there are those out there who have had a good run with their Jabs but don't knock the one that are having issues. The stories are numerous and varied. Much has been done to remedy problems and to be honest even people who are loyal and defensive of JABIRU have in many cases tweaked the engine. I am now pleased under CASA direction and with JABIRU co-operation and open mindedness this festering dilemma can be resolved. I along with many others just want to fly a Jab with a reasonable amount confidence.

A valve replacement at 100 hours looks like overheating, and you are operating in a hot part of the world.

 

So what monitoring of all the CHT's did you install after this warning? Were there any that went over 175 on climb or 150 on cruise? If so, what did you do about it?

 

And yes I tweaked my cooling system when I discovered it wasn't running cool enough. There was plenty of information around to help.

 

Hoping for CASA to improve your situation is like hoping a wrecking crew will fix your radio.

 

 

[rgmwa]

Best of luck selling them in the USA, where the average Joe ( or JoAnne ) weighs in at around 190 Kilos. . . . . ( A BIG MAC in the USA requires a fork lift truck to deliver it to the table. . . . )Phil

Jabiru USA does have quite a good business over there Phil. There must be a few small Americans left, because according to their website they have built and sold 120 or so, and there are also quite a few Jab engines being used in other US homebuilts. Word of the current CASA action has reached their shores too, and they are also waiting to see what happens going forward. (Can't stand those horrible, gimmicky phrases either)

 

rgmwa

 

 

[bexrbetter]

about the buzzwords, "Going Forward". . .

If I hear "This journey you/we/I have been on" one more time ....

 

Well, ta-ta. Too much bias on this website for me. Thanks to those of you who have provided me with useful information.

Me too, I'm leaving this forum until my next post, dang nam it!

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Jabiru USA does have quite a good business over there Phil. There must be a few small Americans left, because according to their website they have built and sold 120 or so, and there are also quite a few Jab engines being used in other US homebuilts. Word of the current CASA action has reached their shores too, and they are also waiting to see what happens going forward. (Can't stand those horrible, gimmicky phrases either)rgmwa

Hi RG. . . . .

You mean, out of around 318 Million souls, 120 of them have bought Jabirus,. . . . .? and a few have used the powerplant in homebuilts. . . . . well, I guess that is a sales record of sorts then, . . . .I have no statistics on what proportion of USA citizens actually fly aeroplanes, but I'd be surprised if it was less per head of population than in the UK,. . . .! . . . . . ( Sorry . . .I don't bother with WIKI, I use as my infosource, my mate Frank at the flying club ( USAF Retired ) who now lives in a civilised country where his Mom won't get her other earlobe shot off with a .38 bullet, fired by a panicky young cop in a crowded Walmart store whilst chasing "Bad guys. . . . .) [ another story ]

 

But I'm glad someone agrees with me about the meaningless gimmicky phrases . . . . ( thought it was just me being a miserable old sod . . . )

 

Phil

 

 

[rgmwa]

Hi RG. . . . .You mean, out of around 318 Million souls, 120 of them have bought Jabirus,. . . . .? and a few have used the powerplant in homebuilts. . . . . well, I guess that is a sales record of sorts then, . . . .I have no statistics on what proportion of USA citizens actually fly aeroplanes, but I'd be surprised if it was less per head of population than in the UK,. . . .! . . . . . ( Sorry . . .I don't bother with WIKI, I use as my infosource, my mate Frank at the flying club ( USAF Retired ) who now lives in a civilised country where his Mom won't get her other earlobe shot off with a .38 bullet, fired by a panicky young cop in a crowded Walmart store whilst chasing "Bad guys. . . . .) [ another story ]

 

But I'm glad someone agrees with me about the meaningless gimmicky phrases . . . . ( thought it was just me being a miserable old sod . . . )

 

Phil

Phil, I believe Jab sales in the US reached their natural limit when the number of slim Americans available to buy them had been reached.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[Admin]

Ok, again we come to a point that the moderators and myself have had to spend a lot of our time cleaning up a thread. You know those signs when you are driving down the highway that say something like "Police are focusing this week on ...", well Jab Bashing is out and being focused on, attacking other users, happily very little of that has been seen in this thread so thanks for that, but this thread has been cleaned up and it actually reads very well. Everyone can get their opinion posted and the subject, the 2nd most important subject that has effected recreational aviation in the last 10 years, is being openly discussed and reflects all your views on the matter and from which a general opinion can be gained from the industry.

 

Please, don't spoil it, thanks for your understanding

 

 

[puddles_7]

Well, ta-ta. Too much bias on this website for me. Thanks to those of you who have provided me with useful information.

Hi Dafydd,

I understand your frustration however there are plenty on here that value your advice and contributions. In my case I can't contribute very much due to my limited knowledge therefore I spend a great deal of time reading most of the posts and trying to sort out the "wheat from the chaff". I very quickly worked out who the armchair authorities are as well as the bashers , the know-alls and the patronisers. Those are the posters that I tend to ignore because their positive contributions are non-existent while their negative posts are massaging their failing egos. I assume the bias you mention is due to Oscar's 2 week holiday. I have read and re-read his posts from yesterday an can't see what has been bad enough to cause his expulsion. There have been plenty of posts by others that I have considered quite patronising or belittling with no reaction from the hierarchy so that leads me to believe there are some untouchables on this site. All the same the exchanges of info by most of the posters is honest and informative.

 

I occasionally converse offline with Oscar when I have a question that will only fire up the Jab bashers when I just want an honest answer without any of the grief. The work you guys are doing is invaluable, especially at this time when the Jabiru reliability issue is coming to a head, and we need the contributions you are making. If you guys are going to disappear from this site then forum members like myself will lose access to such a valuable resource.

 

Keep up the good work and don't leave us.

 

Puddles_7

 

 

[Admin]

I assume the bias you mention is due to Oscar's 2 week holiday. I have read and re-read his posts from yesterday an can't see what has been bad enough to cause his expulsion

Puddles, the mods last night and over time remove posts by moderation so you don't get to see many of them. So please let's stay on subject.

There are many great contributions to this thread by Daffyd and many others all of whom have provided great input and no one would like to see anyone leave, but some times cleaning up a thread to help prevent this is needed

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Daffyd, some of us actually skip through other posts to read yours. We reckon we are fortunate that a qualified and experienced professional engineer takes part in this forum. Please come back after you have a rest.

 

 

[Guest Bruce Knowles]

A valve replacement at 100 hours looks like overheating, and you are operating in a hot part of the world.So what monitoring of all the CHT's did you install after this warning? Were there any that went over 175 on climb or 150 on cruise? If so, what did you do about it?

And yes I tweaked my cooling system when I discovered it wasn't running cool enough. There was plenty of information around to help.

 

Hoping for CASA to improve your situation is like hoping a wrecking crew will fix your radio.

Yes you are right it was an overheating problem and it did take a little time to sort it out

 

My plane was assembled to Jabiru Factory specifications and ticked of by them

 

In the mean time in the early days the damage had already been done. Operationally nothing out of the ordinary to the cause of overheating and did adjust settings when temps started to reach towards the upper limits

 

Yes the occasional hot day but I believe appropriate airman ship was applied at the time

 

There was plenty and varied advice all to do with improving and monitoring the performance of the engine

 

over a period of time in my case converted back to solid lifters, , assembled LCH, Dynon skyview EMS all barrels,Torque plated barrels plus a few more tricks

 

Its been a interesting journey but one that should not need to have taken place. My mates with their rotax engines:evil grin:

 

I'm now at the point where I feel my Jab is performing as it should be. I guess time will tell ????

 

 

[kgwilson]

RAA was in possession of the only full statistics, and CASA receive those statistics progressively, and would already have had the same statistics as RAA.In my opinion RAA acted prudently, rather than waiting for CASA to get in first, and the present action looks a LOT more professional than the Audit saga.

The letter from RAA was reported here some weeks/months ago, and I can't recall anyone raising any objection to it.

 

So the situation is that RAA becoming aware of a risk trend, took action to report that risk to the appropriate Authority to address it.

 

CASA were not set up to move on an industry as a result of comments by either Motz or weasels.

 

What CASA have done is produce a Draft, as they produced a Draft recently for Angel Flight which met with a similar hysterical response.

 

For those who don't understand what a Draft is, is is a document for discussion/checking which is open to change.

 

I understand the people in the Angel Flight community are happy with their outcome, and following the first meeting regarding this draft, positive reports are coming through, and the process appears to be continuing along the paths the industry would expect.

My major concern here is that CASA has acted in a way that seems to most as "Waving the Big Stick" approach rather than working with Jabiru & RA-Aus as the statistics began to mount. Why did CASA need to drop the bombshell threat of the "Proposed Instrument" albeit a draft on Thursday and then provide only one week for the consultative process?

 

CASA should have been talking to Jabiru & RA-Aus who were providing the statistics to get a process moving to address the issues as the statistics began to mount. If they were doing this then the only reason to create this DRAFT would be that a roadblock or stalemate had been reached. RA-Aus was certainly not aware of the issuing of the DRAFT until it happened on Thursday as stated in their Email to members on the same day.

 

The "Big Stick" approach is precisely what was identified in the Forsyth Report. Issuing the DRAFT may have got everyones attention and evoked a certain level of hysteria but in my opinion it is a very poor attempt at issue resolution. The effect has been one of getting many peoples backs up which then often produces irrational response.

 

To a large degree this is what should be expected from CASA as there has been little time since the publication of the Forsyth Report to implement any real culture change.

 

The following is taken from the Forsyth Report Executive Summary which I believe is they key issue that needs to be implemented within CASA, ASAP.

 

"The current relationship between industry and the regulator is cause for concern. In recent years, the regulator has adopted an across the board hard-line philosophy, which in the Panel’s view, is not appropriate for an advanced aviation nation such as Australia. As a result, relationships between industry and the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) have, in many cases, become adversarial.

 

Leading regulators across the world are moving to performance-based regulation, using a ‘trust and verify’ approach, collaborating with industry to produce better safety outcomes and ensuring the regulator stays in touch with rapidly advancing technology and safety practices. On occasions, individual operators may push the boundaries and require close regulatory oversight and a firm regulatory response. An effective risk-based regulator will judge when a hard line is necessary.

 

A number of countries with advanced aviation regulatory systems have developed collaborative relationships between their regulators and industry, leading to open sharing of safety data. Due to the present adversarial relationship between industry and CASA, Australia lacks the degree of trust required to achieve this important aim. Sharing safety data is a fundamental principle of good safety management.

 

The Panel concludes that CASA and industry need to build an effective collaborative relationship on a foundation of mutual trust and respect. Therefore, CASA needs to set a new strategic direction. The selection of a new Director of Aviation Safety should concentrate on finding an individual with leadership and change management abilities, rather than primarily aviation expertise. Other jurisdictions have appointed leaders without an aviation background, who have been successful in changing the strategic direction of the safety regulator."

 

 

[turboplanner]

I've contributed information on our duty of care obligations, public liability when we accidentally make mistakes (negligence), and how that changes to a crime when we know that what we are doing is wrong, over and over and over again, and I'm posting facts on the Public Liability thread as real case examples come up, so I don't propose to answer that post other than to say that performance based regulation has been adopted by governments to transfer the liability for compliance off governments and on to participants in the chain.

 

 

[jetjr]

Isnt a core issue here the lack of solid data?

 

Isnt the threat of action why people dont openly report problems?

 

Solution isnt to beat up someone to come clean then expect open sharing from everyone else???

 

 

[Downunder]

A change in CASA's culture may require a change in personel.....

 

 

[Wilfred]

My opinion, for what it is worth is CASA has had to act on statistics that they and the ATSB have been gathering for over 12 months now. Audits of Jabiru have been done over those 12 months. CASA has a mandate of SAFETY for everyone in aviation, not just pilots but also passengers and those on the ground. If they had said to Jabiru or any other aircraft manufacturer or airline "Hey, how about fixing this issue" the possibility of a reply being "Yeah, Yeah, Yeah" then CASA has to state the implications of not doing what they have asked and what they are legislated to do.

 

An analogy is a big tree beside your house and your children's bedrooms. The wind blows and it sways around making you think "Geeze, I will have to cut that down one day or else it might fall on the house and hurt the kids". A year later nothing has been done and mother nature blows an almighty and the tree is throwing itself around everywhere and in danger of coming down in the next 10mins. A week later the tree has been chopped down with haste.

 

Jabiru, in this instance will not fold but instead in fear of repercussions, make the necessary changes to improve their product and simply pass the cost on to the consumer when they buy a new aircraft.

 

What Jabiru do in respect of existing customers and retrofitting any improvements that they make to existing customers will be their measure. No one wants to see Jabiru go down and I believe the industry won't let that happen however if they become greedy and pass on huge costs to their existing customers then that will be the problem. Existing customers I am sure would accept "some" contribution to better increase their safety but what price would they accept and what will Jabiru try and enforce on them whilst trying to implement CASA's mandate? I think that Jabiru need to be 100% understanding in this situation, not send the business down the drain but at the same time not make anything on it as well and wear as much cost as possible.

 

Just my personal opinion

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Isnt a core issue here the lack of solid data?Isnt the threat of action why people dont openly report problems?

Solution isnt to beat up someone to come clean then expect open sharing from everyone else???

Too right jet. Some time ago I was told by ops to report everything, defect, incident etc.(as the rules state)

 

Myself and my L2's did so religiously. Everything from broken through bolts, to thermal runaway on 12 channel monitored engine. Cylinders out of round (Bantam with 2200), replaced with new, then 15 hours later..Cylinders out of round again.

 

Faulty starter solenoids

 

Factory aircraft new arriving with electrical issues which turned out to be NONE of the wires behind the dash were crimped correctly, and a person could simply pull them out by hand.

 

faulty propellors, throwing leading edge off at start up (first run). This happened twice in a row with new props. Factory told us there was a "bad batch"

 

Rotax problems were also reported, gear box chattering (requiring replacement at high hour state ) Mag issues.

 

Even a wheel departing the acft on a landing,

 

You name, we have had it happen. Mind you we have over the period had jabs 160 x2, 170, 230 x 2, sportstar x2 , piper sports x2, brumby x2, gazellesx 2, bantam, x2, and probably 2000+ hours of training spread through them all (over the given period)

 

So, we reported everything, and what do you think happened?

 

I was asked to explain and I quote " the rash of reportable maintenance issues at Jasper brush."

 

The rash!!!... And it wasn't nice, it wasn't friendly lets help you out stuff either. It apparently came from pressure from CASA (which was never proven to me, I asked for correspondence but was never shown a thing)

 

I even provided correspondence to RAA regarding Jabiru admitting to supplying wrong components which lead to a failure. The factory stated that they dont know how, but the wrong nuts and through bolts were sent and fitted.

 

I asked RRA if Jab would be forced to explain this and other issues of equal magnitude, or weather its just me and my school that has to explain JABIRU"S short comings? Fair question I would have thought.

 

My point is this, how keen to report things do you think I am now?

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Jabiru USA does have quite a good business over there Phil. There must be a few small Americans left, because according to their website they have built and sold 120 or so, and there are also quite a few Jab engines being used in other US homebuilts. Word of the current CASA action has reached their shores too, and they are also waiting to see what happens going forward. (Can't stand those horrible, gimmicky phrases either)rgmwa

120 may be big by Aussie standards , but by US standards its not much....out of a population of 300 million.

 

 

[jetjr]

Im seeing the current approach being the same, not going to engage anyone but drive problems deeper, and become a game of whats the minimum response required to get them to go away for a year or two

 

Forget new aircraft sales, they may not happen now, damage is done with the draft proposal.

 

ALL the costs of this debarcle is going to come from existing customers

 

As said there isnt an easy fix here and Jab just need pressuring to implement it. Risk is they spend big and still dont have it fixed, 12 months is gone still no good.