CASA - Draft Proposal for Jabiru Aircraft

[Geoff13]

In my opinion from what I have seen from Jabiru in the last few days, both on their FB page and website, they appear to be justifying many of the comments that I have heard about them.

 

It seems to me as though they are in denial, it is not their problem and they are asking their customers to convince the minister and casa of that fact. It appears as though not much is likely to come from them of a positive nature. As I say just my opinion from what I have seen.

 

Cheers Geoff13

 

 

[facthunter]

I reckon that's an assumption ft. It's highly illegal to not make the entry, and proof that you maintain your aircraft properly is not a fault, nor is it likely to result in an inferior example of the aircraft in question. Nev

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I agree Nev, I know what is required to be done and If I see some bland logbook that simply says I purchased I flew and Im now selling then the only thing missing is the "Once upon a time" at the beginning, and the acceptance that "We all lived happily after" probably wont apply.

 

The comment above is true of any aircraft and any engine

 

Andy

 

 

[turboplanner]

How many CAMit engines are in operation currently?

 

 

[facthunter]

If you analysed statistics and found "clusters" one would look for a common related factor, like fuel or something. Of all the faults over time the fracture of the through "studs" is the most serious. Agreed?? If so what is the likely cause? Detonation? what is the likely cause of that? There could be a few different causes mostly involved with temperatures. This doesn't have to be head temps. It could be piston, spark plug core, exhaust valve or carbon build up or fuel. being some of the most likely..Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

In the RAA published figures for 5 years that I posted some time ago relating to forced landings there was a mix:

 

Through Bolt: 17

 

Exhaust Valve: 12

 

Seized: 3

 

Conrod: 1

 

Catastrophic: 1

 

What do you make of that mix FH?

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I reckon that's an assumption ft. It's highly illegal to not make the entry, and proof that you maintain your aircraft properly is not a fault, nor is it likely to result in an inferior example of the aircraft in question. Nev

Would the average punter see it as a crime they can get away with? Would CASA prosecute you?

 

 

[facthunter]

I really have no idea ft. I think your plane would not be considered airworthy without the necessary documentation.

 

Turbo.

 

Exhaust valve..? Due what?. overtemp or fatigue due worn guide.

 

Seizure . anything to do with surface rust on the cylinder bores or ring land carboning or over temp or cylinder distortion.?

 

Conrod . Misaligned or developing crack or bolt failure?

 

Studs through case..... Discussed above.?

 

Carastrophic... What you get if you press on with much of the above.happening.

 

Not avoiding the seriousness of the situation but hoping to develop the causal factor discussion. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

Agree; the sticking point in the past has been when I've asked for metallurgy reports etc.

 

 

[Teckair]

It seems to me as though they are in denial,

I saw a Storm aircraft, I think it was, which had a 6 cylinder Jabiru motor in it which had 'powered by denial' written on the engine cowl.

 

 

[JEM]

CASA have just released a clarification and extension of time advisory on the Jab issue.

 

 

[planedriver]

Is a "Cosworth" a Ford engine ?

Only when they win races Phil, it helps them sell more.

 

 

[bushpilot]

Ref the above post - this sounds slightly more positive than CASA’s original decree. I will be writing another response covering the specific issues requested here – i.e. operational limitations impacting flying schools. All owners out there should be doing their own submissions stating their own views and reasons (if wanting to propose modification to the restrictions) :-

 

CONSULTATION DRAFT: OPERATING LIMITATIONS ON JABIRU POWERED AIRCRAFT CD 1425SS

 

(Extract)

 

CASA acknowledges that Jabiru has enjoyed a good reputation for manufacturing safe and reliable engines, and that most Jabiru-manufactured engines continue to operate safely and reliably, in Australia and abroad. None of the issues that have given rise to current concerns about Jabiru engines has anything to do with the safety and reliability of Jabiru aircraft, the integrity of which continues to enjoy CASA’s full regulatory confidence.

 

To Jabiru’s credit, they have acknowledged that a problem of some kind does exist with at least some of its engines—which, as said, may be the consequence of mechanical, operational and/or maintenance-related factors—and that appropriate operational limitations should properly be introduced pending a determination of the cause of that problem and its rectification.

 

* No operational limitations of any kind have been imposed at this point

 

* No action has been taken by CASA at this point to impose any operational limitations, other than to publish notice of the limitations CASA proposes, and to invite public comment on those limitations.

 

* No action will be taken by CASA to impose any operational limitations until after relevant responses to the invitation for comment have been considered, in conjunction with reports and other relevant information CASA has available to it—including submissions and advice received from Jabiru, with whom CASA is conferring, and will continue to confer until optimal and appropriate safety outcomes have been achieved.

 

While responsive comments of any kind may certainly be submitted, the most helpful and relevant responses will relate to the nature and scope of the proposed operational limitations, and such alternative operational limitations as might arguably be more suitable in all the circumstances. In making such alternative proposals, it will be useful if clear reasons for those alternatives are provided.

 

CASA and Jabiru recognise that any operational limitations will be inconvenient, and it will be in everyone’s interest to identify the cause(s) of, and to rectify, the problems involved as quickly as possible. In the meantime, general assertions to the effect that most Jabiru engines operate safely and reliably, or particular claims that a specific Jabiru-powered aircraft has enjoyed many hours of safe and reliable performance, do not address the safety issues immediately to hand.

 

Extension of consultation period. In the consultation notice published by CASA on 13 November 2014, responsive comments were sought by close of business on Thursday, 20 November 2014.

 

Having clarified aspects of this matter about which there appears to have been some misunderstanding, CASA has decided to extend the consultation period by an additional 7 days.

 

Comments may now be submitted to CASA at [email protected] until the close of business on Thursday 27 November 2014.

 

 

 

[Downunder]

Well..... just a little bit of back peddling there........

 

 

[fly_tornado]

CASA just showing Jabiru it means business

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Interesting, and the first time we have heard from CASA since this all started. i dont read much back peddling at all, just perhaps a bit of calming people down.

 

Ill just add the bit you left out bush pilot :)

 

CASA is proposing this action as a precautionary measure, pending identification

 

and rectification of the causes of what appears to be an extraordinary high rate of partial and

 

complete Jabiru engine failures.

 

 

 

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Typical govt speak tho, after laying the boot into jab last week, they cover their butts with:

 

No conclusive determination has been made by CASA about the integrity of Jabiru engines, and

 

no determinative findings have been made by CASA about Jabiru’s ability and willingness to

 

produce safe, sound and reliable aircraft engines.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Jabirus job to prove the engines are up to the job

 

 

[Bigglesworth]

People who think Jabiru treats customers with respect have obviously never sent 5 emails reminding them that they said on the phone that they would work out a fix for a fault with a 2200. This was over about 6 months and all of them were ignored. I later found out they were received.

 

After I finally got to someone, the fix was an obvious bandaid, and when I told them that they got out of it by requesting irrelevant data I didn't have and couldn't get without fitting a full EFIS just for trouble shooting.

 

As for non reports:

 

'A friend of mine' doesn't like to give reports, especially with Jabiru, because there might not be a factory certified 'fix' and sometimes it's easier to bend the rule and fix it properly.

 

Also every time an L1 did some work on a 24x it wouldn't be reported, and I imagine that happens often enough.

 

Even in small things.

 

If we reported every time a Jab didn't start on a cold morning and someone had to take the battery out to charge it, RAA would get innundated in winter and a lot of 24 aircraft would not be certified anymore.

 

 

[gandalph]

It was about accidents so it was put in the correct forum Incidents and Accidents

But that thread has now been locked.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Only when they win races Phil, it helps them sell more.

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[coljones]

Geoff,. . . .( Hope I can call you that as we've not met yet. . . .) I agree about the buzzwords, [ sorry . . . .no useful input about Rod Stiff or CASA or anything else, [too remote here in the UK. . . . .] "Going Forward". . . and crap like that really gets my Goat ( sorry Goats ) and another thing,. . .when a Scientist or Political analyst is asked a question,. . .Why oh Why do they start a sentence with the word "so". . . This is "SO" gramatically BLOODY WRONG but it seems to be pervading most areas of media and political statements nowadays, or am I just an old fart who can't keep up with doublespeak,. . . . Dunno. . . . .Nothing to add on the JABIRU subject, we have a few of them in the UK, and a mate of mine has just bought one,. . . . . I hope that the current atmosphere does not result in his inability to get factory support if it ever goes wrong, BUT of course, there must be a UK distributor who will look after these concerns. . . .(?) Hope so, and I hope it all turns out well for the many owners of that type in Australia,. . .me, I wouldn't buy one as I'm too effing big to get into that tiny office,. . . . . . . why did a company based in a country with wide open spaces design an aircraft with a cockpit only sufficient for bloody midgets ? ? Best of luck selling them in the USA, where the average Joe ( or JoAnne ) weighs in at around 190 Kilos. . . . . ( A BIG MAC in the USA requires a fork lift truck to deliver it to the table. . . . )

 

Phil

So, English is a democratic language - it is owned by the people - which is why a number of authors and playwrights, like Shakespeare, Wycliffe and Tyndale have added lots of words and words are added everyday, such as "bumbag" and "thongs". So if your English Teacher gets up you remind her that it is is your language not hers nor her ilks. Just use "so" like everyone else does.

I am not a midget and I fit into a Jab quite well. It is a cosy fit but much easier to get into than a C152 or a Lightwing. I am also not from the USA and I stopped eating a day's worth of food in a meal - nutrition labeling in shops really helps.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

So, English is a democratic language - it is owned by the people - which is why a number of authors and playwrights, like Shakespeare, Wycliffe and Tyndale have added lots of words and words are added everyday, such as "bumbag" and "thongs". So if your English Teacher gets up you remind her that it is is your language not hers nor her ilks. Just use "so" like everyone else does.I am not a midget and I fit into a Jab quite well. It is a cosy fit but much easier to get into than a C152 or a Lightwing. I am also not from the USA and I stopped eating a day's worth of food in a meal - nutrition labeling in shops really helps.

Thanks for your thoughts Col,. . . . . . I have ammassed the enormous total of seven hours P1 in a Jab, whilst delivering it solo from North Scotland to the South coast of England, zigzagging bad wx over two days, but that was several years ago. . . . ( The engine didn't give me any grief at all. . .) but I'm still not over keen on the cockpit dimensions, I did find the all around visibilty a little restricted against the C150/152, but I wouldn't have used that as a fair comparison anyway.

 

As for my English teacher. . .she is long gone I'm afraid.

 

Thinkest thou I shouldst go hang myself in mine own humorous petard . . . . . .? ( apologies to Bill Shakespeare for the misquote from Henry the 4th Part One [ Sir John Falstaff addressing Prince Hal. . . .]

 

Kind regards

 

Phil

 

 

[Keith Page]

I'd be curious to know what Air/fuel mixture ratios people have been playing with. I know of people leaning mixture setting off for good economy, at what cost?

Yes reggie,

There are those who tweak the fuel burn down and horse power up. That equates to extremely lean fuel mixture -- with lean fuel well every thing burns in the head.

 

I would dearly like to know more about these fuel burns ---- when one quizzes about the carby tampering " oh! no one does that" like "no one tampers with the exhaust".

 

To put in simplistic terms:- There is a given amount of fuel needed to develop a given horse power to move a given weight a given distance.

 

It is a good rule of thumb ---- what hp you have, you will know roughly what fuel burn you have. (2strokes exempts)

 

---- or what fuel you have you should roughly know your hp. (2strokes exempts)

 

Equated by:- one fifth litre of fuel per h.p. per hr.. That is at cruise. Good rule of thumb. (2strokes exempts)

 

That equation or little on the rich side is a good place to be.

 

To nut this Jab engine problem we need more information on fuels.

 

Are the mogas fuels the same blend always?

 

As I see the situation the 98 is the most stable however I am up for correction.

 

Regards

 

KP

 

 

[vk3awa]

Yes reggie,There are those who tweak the fuel burn down and horse power up. That equates to extremely lean fuel mixture -- with lean fuel well every thing burns in the head.

I would dearly like to know more about these fuel burns ---- when one quizzes about the carby tampering " oh! no one does that" like "no one tampers with the exhaust".

 

To put in simplistic terms:- There is a given amount of fuel needed to develop a given horse power to move a given weight a given distance.

 

It is a good rule of thumb ---- what hp you have, you will know roughly what fuel burn you have. (2strokes exempts)

 

---- or what fuel you have you should roughly know your hp. (2strokes exempts)

 

Equated by:- one fifth litre of fuel per h.p. per hr.. That is at cruise. Good rule of thumb. (2strokes exempts)

 

That equation or little on the rich side is a good place to be.

 

To nut this Jab engine problem we need more information on fuels.

 

Are the mogas fuels the same blend always?

 

As I see the situation the 98 is the most stable however I am up for correction.

 

Regards

 

KP

Also take into account the propeller and airframe. "Standard" Jabiru jetting is for their airframe/prop combination. Variations will cause different loads on the engine requiring changes in jetting to compensate for non "standard". I run a 19 reg aircraft that has been fitted with various props over its life. Each time I fit another type of prop I have to rejet the carby to give me the optimum A/F mixture. How do I know the A/F mixture is different for each prop....... I measure it in flight at various RPM and plot a graph when I'm back on the ground.