CASA - Draft Proposal for Jabiru Aircraft

[Admin]

But that thread has now been locked.

Only locked whilst it was cleaned up...have a look

 

 

[Chird65]

Well, 10% if them did. According to those numbers. Mind you one hasnt been reported yet (to jab) as its the basis of legal action which I cant comment on.

35 / 3,665 = 0.0095497954 or 1%

 

Though I agree too many, and the figures may not represent the actual numbers.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Sorry for the typo chird. I meant to say I have had 3 thru bolt failures. So 10% of the reported cases.

 

One was explained, one was out of the blue on a high hour engine, the third just recently at 300 hrs post top end overhaul. My suspicion is it's related to the flywheel failure 80 hours ago.

 

 

[Chird65]

Sorry for the typo chird. I meant to say I have had 3 thru bolt failures. So 10% of the reported cases.One was explained, one was out of the blue on a high hour engine, the third just recently at 300 hrs post top end overhaul. My suspicion is it's related to the flywheel failure 80 hours ago.

All good; it just didn't read that way. Could be my reading as well.

 

Chris

 

 

[motzartmerv]

No, was crap typo ( auto correct) sorry mate.

 

 

[Russ]

Query......after a thru bolt upgrade, is that issue no longer an issue ??

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I can only answer that from what I've seen , yes- this latest failure was a post mod.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Jut recieved another email from the jab factory. I really think they need to stop trying to convince the world of their goodness and start adressig the issues.

 

In the email they stated the new through bolts have sorted the issue.

 

But I would disagree.

 

They also state that only flying schools seem to have failures. Again, I don't agree with this, but not a good look for an aeroplane sold as " the worlds most affordable training plane"

 

If I was jab I would stop the emails and start fixing!!!

 

 

[Russ]

Thanks.....

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Email just arrived from Jabiru.

 

"To Whom it May Concern,

 

The basis of the meeting with CASA was in essence to say that our engine

 

incident rate was higher than Rotax based on flying hours and this was the sole

 

basis for punitive action.

 

CASA refused to recognise our overall safety in regard to fatalities and serious

 

injury where we have an outstanding record. We tabled statistics from the United

 

States which showed us to be the safest LSA aircraft in the United States. This

 

was disregarded. You may see these statistics at the following link.

 

http://flightdesign.com/files/Media/The%20Aviation%20Consumer%20-

 

%20LSA%20Accidents.pdf= Similar statistics don’t seem to be collected in

 

Australia or they are being withheld.

 

CASA stated that they had not researched the engine failure rates in any details to

 

ascertain if the failures were the result of operational, maintenance, or design

 

related factors. They did not release to Jabiru the actual statistics they had on

 

hand of engine failure rates. There is no international standard for the reliability of

 

piston aero engines and to compare one manufacturer with another is without

 

precedent. CASA also stated that there had been a spike in the incident rates on

 

Jabiru engines. This statement was refuted by the RAA who had on hand data

 

that showed there was no spike and this was tabled at the meeting. The fact that

 

CASA states that Rotax statistics are better than Jabiru statistics is not a point of

 

law and cannot be enforced under law.

 

Our own research indicates two failure modes, through bolt failures and valve train

 

failures which are the major contributors to the statistics. Our research and

 

statistics also reflected that the majority of these failures occurred in hard working

 

flying schools using 2200 engines. Engines used for private applications have

 

virtually no through bolt failures on our records. Our latest research and statistics

 

tell us that the introduction of roller cams has to date eliminated valve train failures

 

and the introduction of 7/16 through bolts in production engines has to date

 

eliminated through bolt failures. We have also introduced valve relief pistons which

 

do not allow a stuck valve to impact the piston. These pistons are now standard

 

and have been used on all overhauls and repairs since August 2013 and were

 

introduced to production in October 2013. We are also upgrading engines to the

 

current spec at owners request at major service intervals such as top end

 

overhaul. CASA were intently interested in our analysis and research which

 

justified the introduction of the latest modifications. To this end they have agreed

 

to come to Bundaberg and review our engineering development. We welcome this

 

move.

 

The problem is getting smaller by the day. It should be put in to perspective that

 

the incident rate quoted by the RAA has been 0.03% in some 90,000 movements

 

of Jabiru Aircraft which is a very low number and translates to 1 in 3,300 take offs.

 

Our own research and statistics establish that if we eliminate through bolt and

 

valve train failures the statistics may very well be more favourable than Rotax.

 

Our engineering efforts over the last three years have been to address

 

predominately these two failure modes that developed after years in the field.

 

Several Service Bulletins have been issued however we have no way of knowing

 

the take up rate of these Service Bulletins.

 

We are in the process of implementing contacting every flying school to ascertain

 

the configuration status of each Jabiru engine they operate. We will then suggest

 

individually a preventative program."

 

 

[Yenn]

I am still of the opinion that the constant Jab knocking on this forum was the reason for CASA doing something, if only to be seen to be doing something.

 

 

[coljones]

Try this

 

http://flightdesign.com/files/Media/The%20Aviation%20Consumer%20-%20LSA%20Accidents.pdf

 

 

[fly_tornado]

You serious? Name another time CASA has acted on whingeing?

 

 

[turboplanner]

I am still of the opinion that the constant Jab knocking on this forum was the reason for CASA doing something, if only to be seen to be doing something.

You are aware that RAA wrote a specific letter to CASA requesting action?

 

Do you think CASA on receiving this could just ignore it?

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Without wanting to sound pro-jabiru if the information given above is true it's hard to work out where things will go from here.

 

If it were any other branch of society who tried this on a business the authority would be being sued within an inch of it's life by now ( I am on a board which looks at doctors suitability to practice in several hospitals as visiting specialists. We have had some situations where withholding this sort of data would be tantamount to a criminal offense. if we presented basically this sort of limitation to a doctor (that is no data except to say "you had more (but unspecified number and no benchmarks to state what is acceptable or not) complications than someone else so we won't let you work here" we would be thrown out and have our own credentialing removed) If what's been said by Jabiru here is true then there has been no attempt by CASA to follow the rules of natural justice.

 

I wrote to CASA over the weekend and made a submission requesting that CASA release all the data so everyone can truthfully look at what the risks are so we as pilots can decide if we want to take the risk of flying.

 

If they won't even release it to the party they claim have the problem then I'm not holding my breath that we as mere pilots will get anything either.

 

Obviously Jabiru aren't going to write a public letter like this and paint themselves out to be in the wrong but if CASA is even partially doing what Jabiru are saying they are doing then they aren't doing what is required by law in every other part of society. But then they always have been a law unto themselves.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Jabiru and Arion are the only Jab powered SLSAs in the top 10, a total of 125 airframes out of the 2168 on that list 5.7%.

 

Sample size is too small to be meaningful.

 

 

 

[Teckair]

I am still of the opinion that the constant Jab knocking on this forum was the reason for CASA doing something, if only to be seen to be doing something.

I would be amazed if that comment was correct in regard to the reason for actions taken by CASA.

 

 

[dutchroll]

I am still of the opinion that the constant Jab knocking on this forum was the reason for CASA doing something, if only to be seen to be doing something.

I worked for the Federal Government for 16 years. While governments worry about what Alan Jones says (even though he's an mind-numbingly ignorant old fool), they generally couldn't give a hoot about online forum discussions. They're also pretty cautious about the prospects of litigation in response to any action they might take.

The 2nd part of your opinion is true - they do like to be seen to be doing something regardless of its practical effectiveness.

 

 

[Guest Bruce Knowles]

SPLIT BARREL AND BROKEN (NEW) THROUGH BOLT SUPPLIED BY JABIRU THE RESULT OF WHICH WAS ENGINE FAILURE RESULTING IN FORCE LANDING:oops:

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Mmmm.. Fixed the problem?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I am still of the opinion that the constant Jab knocking on this forum was the reason for CASA doing something, if only to be seen to be doing something.

if that were true, how the hell is Tony Abbot still PM?

 

 

[brilin_air]

Bruce.

 

You forgot to add that the 3 standard jabirus that made that trip with you, all did it without incident.

 

Also it wasn't a standard barrel that was honed....

 

 

[Guest Bruce Knowles]

Problem has been fixed

 

 

[Guest john]

I am still of the opinion that the constant Jab knocking on this forum was the reason for CASA doing something, if only to be seen to be doing something.There is an old saying as follows: If theres smoke theres fire. If RAA corresponded to CASA about there serious concerns of the continual & ongoing defects in Jabiru engines, then RAA has a duty of care to have notified CASA about these ongoing serious concerns otherwise RAA would have been legally negligent to have not reported their concerns to CASA who are after all the national aviation regulator body appointed by the Federal Government & CASA has a duty of care under ANR's & ANO's to act accordingly.

 

If all the " AVIATION DOGOODERS "who think that RAA & CASA have acted in haste & inappropriately on this issue which has been going now for long time & eventually had to be addressed sooner or later, then these "DOGGOODERS" should write to RAA & CASA & tell them bluntly where they have gone wrong.

 

As sure as night follows day the writing is now on the wall for Jabiru Aircraft to get their house in order asap & comply with RAA & CASA's requirements otherwise it is unlikely they will be given a 2nd opportunity.

[ianboag]

... new through bolts have sorted the issue. ... only flying schools seem to have failures.

And the moon is made of green cheese.

 

These engines have been in production for something like 15 years with 3500-odd made and this is a new problem?

 

Adelaide Soaring Club proudly get to 1000 hrs as does Chris Stott and a few others. On the other hand Paul Crowfoot at Warnervale Rotaxified his 160C after three or four engines broke in a five (?) year period.

 

One assumes that the offer will be something like - now that the problem is solved after 15 years, the factory will "fix" things at your expense. Wow.

 

We don't have a dealer any more in NZ.

 

We did a few years ago - he was real keen - ran a flying school in Tauranga - saw a Jab and loved the concept. So he went to Bundaberg and bought a new 230 and a not-old 120. Flew them back to NZ across 2000 km of ocean and started heavy duty training - about 100 hours/mo for each. Loved it right up to the point where the 230 popped its (starfish) flywheel bolts, landed in some inhospitable country and became a kitset. It went back to Bundy where it was explained that it was probably a maintenance problem - his LAME that did the 100 hour service/inspections was not up to snuff or something. Shortly after that, the 120 popped a pot in the circuit (through bolt failure) but landed OK. Same LAME every 100 hours, so what can we say?

 

A new engine was therefore the story for the 120 - at 700-odd hours there was no question of warranty. A new engine was purchased and installed. At the first month's service it was weeping oil round the cylinder bases. That means the pots are moving and it's just a matter of time until a through bolt breaks from fatigue. Bundy didn't want to know, so he sold the 120 for a knockdown price and quit running a flying school. Rumour has it the exercise cost him a 6-figure sum.

 

I realise this story is anecdotal. There's more, but this will do for now. There is still no agent in NZ.