CASA - Draft Proposal for Jabiru Aircraft

[Keenaviator]

Jabirus job to prove the engines are up to the job

Innocent until proven guilty

 

The reports & images contained in this thread tell the whole story once & for all for CASA,RAA, owners & pilots of Jabiru aircraft & any new potential buyer interested in purchasing this type of aircraft.Or in other words 'THE CHICKENS HAVE NOW COME HOME TO ROOST"

Did you notice that dates on this website? The incident/accident happened in 2001 and it looks like the the website was updated in 2011.

Laurie

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Keen, I think yu miss the point of ATSM certified, Jabiru has to prove the engines are safe and that the RAA standards are causing the failures

 

 

[Bigglesworth]

The through-bolts, even the older small ones, don't need babying. At normal combustion max pressure the small bolts have a tensile stress of 157 MPa due to the combustion itself. The bolts are 270 MPa yield strength steel.What you can't do to this or any engine is have detonation or pre-ignition or both. An air-cooled engine is more likely be run hot and this and/or poor fuel can cause detonation with 3 times the pressures.

 

Also, the detonation can be subtle, for example only happening in one cylinder for part of the time.

 

( Having said that, the new bigger bolts are stressed only to 115MPa by normal combustion, and would take a fair bit of detonation)

 

How can Jabiru be held responsible for the fuel and how the temperatures are managed?

 

On tweaking cooling systems, I personally didn't pay enough for the plane to have this sort of detail done by the factory.

 

My guess is that the latest fine-finned heads and latest ducts probably don't need to be tweaked, but the older setups did. The best reference for what to do is on the Limbach site, a German certified engine based on the Volkswagen.

 

Monitoring all the temperatures is obviously sensible, especially if you rent the plane out. And way cheaper than going to liquid cooling.

 

There are a couple of unhappy Rotax owners around here, it costs about $4000 for the regular ( 5 year) mandatory hose replacement job, even if the old hoses are good and the hours are low. (Now there is a sum of money a Jabiru owner can spend on monitoring. ) I'll soon be $12,000 ahead on that detail alone, which happens to be the sum I paid for my engine years ago.

As regards value for money, for the price of a 2200 I could just about buy a brand new Hyundai excel with 88hp. Run on any fuel in any heat with neglecting service intervals and have a pretty damn good run out of the motor. And have the rest of the vehicle thrown in for free.

 

Nope, for $15000 I want to bolt it in and turn the key.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Keen, I think yu miss the point of ATSM certified, Jabiru has to prove the engines are safe and that the RAA standards are causing the failures

No, not so. ASTM certified requires the manufacturer to certify that the product complies with the relevant ASTM standard - in the case of an engine, ASTM F 2339. The requirement is spelled out in CASA AC 21 - 42 para 6.5:

6.5 LSA Statement of Compliance

 

6.5.1 For a production LSA to be issued a Special Certificate of Airworthiness, the

 

manufacturer is required to sign a Statement of Compliance (see example at Appendix 2 to

 

this AC) for each aircraft that is produced. This Statement of Compliance indicates the

 

aircraft complies with all the applicable LSA standards for the aircraft type. (See Appendix

 

1 to this AC).

 

 

Nothing more than this is enforceable by CASA.

 

 

[facthunter]

Motz the only operational deviation? I recommended for engine temp is to increase airspeed on the climb. This applies to ALL engines where you have a temp High problem. The nature of the Jabiru airframe makes this a win win, often as the ROC doesn't usually drop off much. Minimum climb speed relates to gradient or obstacle clearance, or circuit height achievement. En route you are better to use a higher speed once you are pointed the way you are going..

 

Extended engine idle descents will result in cold engines. Many "types" don't recommend the idle power descent. Smaller motors are not as prone to thermal shock as larger ones, although Glider towing or meat bombing operations are known cylinder head crackers. I don't think the Jabiru has a chronic cylinder head cracking engine.

 

They do cop an explosion every second revolution that has something to do with their life also. Nev

 

 

[rankamateur]

Thermo nuclear means it had a runaway in CHT on one pot. Went to 230 deg's in a matter of seconds. The factory could not provide an explanation for this, nor could an independent assesment.

Sounds like a pocket of magnesium in the casting caught alight.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Motz the only operational deviation? I recommended for engine temp is to increase airspeed on the climb. This applies to ALL engines where you have a temp High problem.

Yes, and this is my point. Any pilot will see elevating CHT's etc and increase climb speed or decrease power or both. My point is, WHEN? At what point do we take this action? Some will say its a normal part of flying and yes, of course it is. But, if we are using instrumentation and "NUMBERS" given us by the factory, then we can climb the aeroplane as hard as we like, until it reaches these pre defined 'limits' and then back off yea? Not advisable, but still operating " within limits". And here is the problem. I dont think the true limit is 180 deg's and 200 max. I dont believe this is correct.

I dont think these engines can be operated within design specs IAW with jabs documents. That is my point.

 

Any pilot should know about managing heat on a climb, BUT, he or she is only as good as the info he's basing this management plan on. If the POH states max continuous CHT is 180, then he can drive it all day at that temp and be operating IAW Jabs figures. THESE FIGURES ARE WRONG IMHO

 

 

[Keenaviator]

Keen, I think yu miss the point of ATSM certified, Jabiru has to prove the engines are safe and that the RAA standards are causing the failures

Fair enough.

 

 

[facthunter]

You may have something but IT has to be demonstrated, in a provable way. An aircooled motor should be OK at 180 but maybe the fuel is inconsistent. I've picked up 98 that was contaminated with some added solvent. The Octane ratings are NOT the same for Avgas and Mogas. Avgas has a range (Lean-Rich) that if must satisfy and is controlled by release notes etc wheras Mogas can be anyone's guess. I've constantly suggested fitting colder plugs but has anyone ever done this? It's the first thing I would do if there was any chance of detonation.

 

Fitting the heat measuring washers under spark plugs can change the heat range.

 

IF an exhaust valve is held of it's seat by the valve lifter it will go red. Lost the last part of this Hope it makes sense. Nev

 

 

[dan3111]

I think to be fair Jabiru have had plenty of slack and grace over the years to do R & D on there engine and still be able to sell them at the same with design faults still in them and I haven,t seen to many recoils on known faults ever .These lack of compulsory recoils has let them off the hook to still be able to trade and there for survive but on the other hand the slack has not put enough pressure to improve the design . So at the end of the day there is only so much slack in the system before it catches up to any one . I think at least the tbo should be bought back to 500 hours, if there was a real true record kepted of spare parts and whole engine replacement before the 1000 hours tbo. You would find less then 50 percent make the 1000 hours before mayor work is carried out on the engine like heads, rings,valves etc . Some of this is caused from pilot fault but a lot is design fault from over heating etc . all i can say i,m glad i don,t fly behind one been there done that and wasn,t nice .

 

dan

 

 

[jetjr]

TBO does not mean that the engine needs no work until then, very few engines operate to TBO without extensive work

 

A core problem here is that the other predominant engine in RAA, Rotax 912, is an exceptionally good engine.

 

Even CASA is comparing the two and setting bar high for Jabiru.

 

Whats a new 914 cost? Extra $15K??

 

Are people prepared to pay this much extra for lower hp engine to suit their J230

 

Its quite normal to perform top end overhaul at 500hrs, at the cost it works out OK. I even replaced engine @ 750 because for a little bit more money got all new heads and engine upgrades included. Not much wrong with old one, compressions down and temperatures bit high with old heads, used a bit of oil.

 

It was and still is a solid lifter engine.

 

Dont read too much into aircraft with new engines.

 

 

[nickduncs84]

As regards value for money, for the price of a 2200 I could just about buy a brand new Hyundai excel with 88hp. Run on any fuel in any heat with neglecting service intervals and have a pretty damn good run out of the motor. And have the rest of the vehicle thrown in for free.Nope, for $15000 I want to bolt it in and turn the key.

I can't say I'm a big fan of Jabiru management, but I do empathise with Rod Stiff when I read things like this. My Grandpa once told me that it doesn't matter how much you love your job, eventually you'll get sick of dealing with people and throw in the towel.

 

I can just picture Rod sitting in his office with steam coming out of his ears as he listens to someone compare a Jabiru to a Hyundai. Before he's even had a chance to formulate his thoughts he develops a mental image of about 100 reasons why comparing the price of a mass produced car to a niche aero engine is so absurd. But he's reached the end of his tether, so instead of being drawn into the conversation with yet another misguided soul, he turns around repeatedly head butts the desk until he passes out. Just another day in Bundy I would imagine....

 

 

[motzartmerv]

A core problem here is that the other predominant engine in RAA, Rotax 912, is an exceptionally good engine.

Even CASA is comparing the two and setting bar high for Jabiru.

 

.

Probably true. And I agree with Jabiru in one respect, if they didnt suffer these recurring issues and failure modes, the 'normal" failure modes would be reasonably low.

Lets face it, its either Thru bolts, or valve trains . Sort those problems and i wouldn't imagine many failures at all. In fact im scratching to think of a failure Ive heard of that wasnt related to either of these.

 

 

[ianboag]

TBO does not mean that the engine needs no work until then, very few engines operate to TBO without extensive work

I have owned Lycs and Conts though and couldn't argue with that. The Rotax 912 seems to be made of sterner stuff.

 

Its quite normal to perform top end overhaul at 500hrs, at the cost it works out OK.

As I recall, new pots, pistons, valves, guides made a pretty good hole in $10k when I did mine. "OK" was not how I looked at it.

 

I even replaced engine @ 750 because for a little bit more money got all new heads and engine upgrades included. Not much wrong with old one, compressions down and temperatures bit high with old heads, used a bit of oil.

If Jabs were advertised as "likely to need a top overhaul at 500 hours" and/or "possibly a good idea to replace the outdated engine with a new one before 1000 hours" I wonder how many they would sell .....

 

 

[facthunter]

True Nick. You can't compare a mass produced CAR with an aero engine that is certified. Certification is one of the problems, because it is hard to change things. ( even for the better)

 

I know lots of people who make stuff with CNC machines all over the place. They can't get the material for the price of the finished part from CHINA.. Making lots of stuff ends up being material plus a small percentage only..

 

Jabiru is low volume with lots of variations in the installation, usage etc. Some owners were even using Start Ya Barmaid. It's (the Jab) been out there from about 1993, in one form or another.

 

Anyone who is in the CNC machining game looks at the Jabiru and the Rotec Radial and wonders how they can make any money out of making them. The Rotax is not really capable of being rebuilt at an economical price and it isn't cheap.

 

Regarding Ian Boags Conti Lyc comments

 

You would never need new cylinders till into the second life unless you dusted them or such.. You might reseat the valves. (face valves and seats) and replace the valve guides and re ring, if you are unlucky. A lot of them are 2400 hr.TBO. The exhaust valves are the critical part and you can get cylinders,camshaft rusting if you let the motor sit unused, without inhibiting it. Nev

 

 

[Russ]

[quote="Dafydd Llewellyn, post: 460202, member: 8952......if we're going to make such a fuss about statistics, let's put them into some sort of perspective:......I would be obliged if the moderators could refrain from interfering with this post.

 

(Ok so far we wont, however we reserve the right to edit any post that contains material contrary to the rules as per our brief....mod)

 

Note to Ian: Nothing subversive intended Ian here and no criticism implied re the site. I'd just like your assurance that private messages are just that.

 

I think you will find "PM's" in systems like this one, are not " private " at all, third party, ie owner/ moderator..maybe, would have easy access to read contents.

 

Ian, would you mind clarifying this point.

 

Russ

 

("As a moderator I do not have access to PM's. I have access to posts on the site but not the messaging system." one of the mod's...)

 

 

[nickduncs84]

True Nick. You can't compare a mass produced CAR with an aero engine that is certified. Certification is one of the problems, because it is hard to change things. ( even for the better)I know lots of people who make stuff with CNC machines all over the place. They can't get the material for the price of the finished part from CHINA.. Making lots of stuff ends up being material plus a small percentage only..

Jabiru is low volume with lots of variations in the installation, usage etc. Some owners were even using Start Ya Barmaid. It's been out there from about 1993.

 

Anyone who is in the CNC machining game looks at the Jabiru and the Rotec Radial and wonders how they can make any money out of making them. The Rotax is not really capable of being rebuilt at an economical price and it isn't cheap.

 

Regarding Ian Boags Conti Lyc comments

 

You would never need new cylinders till into the second life unless you dusted them or such.. You might reseat the valves. (face valves and seats) and replace the valve guides and re ring, if you are unlucky. A lot of them are 2400 hr.TBO. The exhaust valves are the critical part and you can get cylinders,camshaft rusting if you let the motor sit unused, without inhibiting it. Nev

Yes that was what I was getting at. The reality is that Aviation can't be cheap. Even without regulation. Add in regulation and it's not hard to see why a single engine Cessna with a 200HP engine all of a sudden costs $500k.

Experimental and recreational aviation provide all kinds of opportunities for the average person to get into the sky. But we shouldn't expect to get a 500k cessna when we buy a 100k Ultralight...

 

I saw a fairly new J230 for sale for 65k the other day. That's a good buy in any climate (even the current one). Spend a bit extra to put in the right engine instrumentation to at least improve your odds. If things really don't work out, spend 20k on a new Camit and you're still in pretty good shape....but all of that being said, don't pretend it's something it's not. Everytime I fly into Sydney on the big Q I see Wedderburn and think about how there isn't enough money in the world to pay me to fly out of there day in day out....even in a Cessna....but certainly not in a Jabiru...

 

And as Dafydd was alluding to, there are far more dangerous risk factors in aviation than engines. The round thing on your shoulders is far more likely to kill you than any engine is....

 

 

[facthunter]

The NUT holding the joystick is critical. Nev

 

 

[Russ]

Note to Ian: Nothing subversive intended Ian here and no criticism implied re the site. I'd just like your assurance that private messages are just that.

I think you will find "PM's" in systems like this one, are not " private " at all, third party, ie owner/ moderator..maybe, would have easy access to read contents.

 

Ian, would you mind clarifying this point.

 

Russ

 

("As a moderator I do not have access to PM's. I have access to posts on the site but not the messaging system." one of the mod's...)

 

Thanks for the moderator point, leaves Ian's response to PM access.

 

 

[jetjr]

"As I recall, new pots, pistons, valves, guides made a pretty good hole in $10k when I did mine. "OK" was not how I looked at it"

 

Yep, my quote was "$6k plus any extra parts, could be $3-$4K" and for $12K you get whole set of new heads, barrels, pistons, bearings, new leads, mag internals and drives, seals oil and fuel pumps, most new innards, flywheel upgrades, new starter, carb etc etc. Good deal in my books - didnt say cheap.

 

They will even send you some rebuild details on engines on offer for you to choose from - whats new whats not inside.

 

"If Jabs were advertised as "likely to need a top overhaul at 500 hours" and/or "possibly a good idea to replace the outdated engine with a new one before 1000 hours" I wonder how many they would sell ..."

 

That info is widely known, not hard to find out. If you buy an experimental non certified aircraft engine and expect not to have substantial improvements or repairs in 750hrs and 10 YEARS ownership your not ready to own an aircraft.

 

 

[acro]

Innocent until proven guiltyDid you notice that dates on this website? The incident/accident happened in 2001 and it looks like the the website was updated in 2011.

 

Laurie

the guy has been hassling casa for 15 years to sort jabiru out, he hasnt been able to fly since

 

 

[ianboag]

If Jabs were advertised as "likely to need a top overhaul at 500 hours" and/or "possibly a good idea to replace the outdated engine with a new one before 1000 hours" .. That info is widely known, not hard to find out.

 

Not mentioned by the manufacturer anywhere I have seen.

 

If you buy an experimental non certified aircraft engine and expect not to have substantial improvements or repairs in 750hrs and 10 YEARS ownership your not ready to own an aircraft.

 

"You're".

 

Unless the power unit is a "912" ...

 

I talked to Paul Crowfoot before Rotaxifying my 160. I said "no doubt makes a different noise in the cockpit" to which he replied "and the good thing is that it just keeps on making it " :-)

 

 

[facthunter]

The fact that upgrading of parts to newer and better is such a good deal is one of the reasons why so many take up the offer. IF you can get a nil hours engine for a bit extra why would you NOT do that.? Much has been made of the inference the engine failed, when the engine hours are way less than the aircraft.. FAILURE may not have occurred at all. It has always been a good idea to take advantage of a good offer. If new heads are improved and not much dearer than working the old ones etc... Can't we get over comparing cars to aeroplanes? There is only a limited carry over concept of similarity.. If you are a fit and forget person you don't suit an aeroplane environment, because an aeroplane is a "check everything" situation. .THINK aeroplane. I don't know how many people I have felt the need to say that to. Nev

 

 

[Russ]

So....my 160C ( type certified ) should achieve "TBO", therefore I have "recourse" if it goes pearshaped.

 

Maintenance log fully up to date, all work LAME done, AD's all done, no signs of overheating......fuel avgas 96% of the time.

 

Too good to be true, then again, I might be way off here .

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Depends Russ, as long as you keep paying for the upgrades and the latests versions, no worries. she will get there:)