CASA - Draft Proposal for Jabiru Aircraft

[ianboag]

The fact that upgrading of parts to newer and better is such a good deal is one of the reasons why so many take up the offer.

 

The engine has been around for 15 years - when does it stop?

 

IF you can get a nil hours engine for a bit extra why would you NOT do that.? Much has been made of the inference the engine failed, when the engine hours are way less than the aircraft..

 

Nope. Just that all these engines that were sold as "1000 hours to top overhaul" and needed it at 500.

 

FAILURE may not have occurred at all.

 

See above

 

If you are a fit and forget person you don't suit an aeroplane environment, because an aeroplane is a "check everything" situation.

 

Haven't seen the manufacturer pointing THAT out either.

 

THINK aeroplane. I don't know how many people I have felt the need to say that to.

 

Were any of them flying behind 912's .... ?

 

As you can tell, I'm Ian Boag from Palmerston North, NZ and over time I have done my bit for Rod's pension plan. You must be Nev Facthunter from ???

 

 

[facthunter]

TBO has never inferred you don't have to do work on it if checks (required) indicate a situation requiring it. That's why you do an annual or 100 hourly and pull the prop through preflight.

 

The way TBO is established at the moment may justifiably require scrutiny, as a maker can't or shouldn't just nominate one to suit themselves. It is an upper limit of operating time before the engine has to be stripped and inspected. The extension " on condition" is a bit unusual because the 100 hourly /annual has not permitted any extension whatever (as I understand).. Finding metal particles in a filter in a jet engine makes it U/S . same as having low compression on a cylinder. Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

FAILURE may not have occurred at all. It has always been a good idea to take advantage of a good offer. If new heads are improved and not much dearer than working the old ones etc... .

Im afraid im not on this page with you at all Nev. I find myself flying into unfamiliar territory here, and that is, dissagreeance with you.

I am sold an aeroplane. I Pay for a new Item, i should have the reasonable expectation that that product

 

a) Should fit the purpose AS IS, as for which it was sold

 

b) Should the engine require a significant mod ie, new heads, then this should not be at my expense. I have paid for the engine once. Why should I be buying ' upgrades' AT ALL?

 

While i appreciate that aero engines are not mass produced car engines, consumer law still applies. And if I am told that the aircraft i bought, when operated IAW with the 'instructions", should last me XXX amount of hours AS IS.. Then I should expect it to do so.

 

If Jab release a 'better design' later on, then jab can express post me the new parts with a blank cheque to pay my engineer to fit it. Possibly far too simple a view, but Im certainly not onboard with this " rolling buiold ' idea that seems to be so accepted by the factory as a way of operating. I call it bandaid or 'reactive' engineering, instead of pro active.

 

Fly cut pistons ? Really? Instead of fixing the problems that CAUSE valve impacts on pistons crowns , we cut grooves in the cylinders for 'room' so the valves dont impact any more.

 

So when my valves start bashing in, I call the factory and they say..Oh, you dont have the new flycut pistions.. Its now MY FAULT the engine is playing up.

 

Can you see why as an owner, I would not be very interested in hearing how theres new better ways of doing things after Ive bought and paid for my engine?

 

 

[ianboag]

TBO has never inferred you don't have to do work on it if checks (required) indicate a situation requiring it .. it is an upper limit of operating time before the engine has to be stripped and inspected.

 

Might as well just read a number (that few achieve) off the ceiling.

 

The extension " on condition" is a bit unusual

 

Not in the GA world. Lots of Lycs, Conts and Rotaxes get there. Never heard of a Jab that did ...

 

 

[facthunter]

Ian I'm not going down that path. You can disagree with what I'm saying. That's your prerogative. I have NO connection with Rod or Ian. . I HAVE been in an aeroplane environment for a long time. I must have learned something and I hope I keep on learning. Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

Quoting me out of context Ian. I pointed out the 100 hourly/ annual doesn't permit it. If the authority was being consistent it would allow a latitude there too..Nev

 

 

[Geoff13]

An engine that costs $15,000.00 and is quoted as a top end at 1000 hours and TBO 2000 hrs should if operated in accordance with instructions get to those hours normal maintenance excluded. All engines require maintenance but not all engines require a system on ongoing rebuilding throughout the life of the engine. To be honest these engines are sounding more and more like my Dads axe, it has had 3 new handles and 2 new heads but gee's its been a good axe.

 

At $23,000 a 912 is starting to sound cheaper all the time.

 

Cheers Geoff13

 

 

[facthunter]

Merv There is a disconnect between CAMit and the Jabiru people as to what should be done on many matters. I don't know the intricacies of it, but what is wrong with offering an improved version at an attractive price if it becomes available.? Would you want that not to happen? Don't expect them to do it for nothing as that's not likely. The open and shut case you make is not the solution, that can just be applied here.. Lawyers put the big 3 out of business for years in the US. That is not the way to go. Only the Lawyers win. Nev.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

And here, we arrive at the point. If it aint broke, why would there be a new improved version at all? The new version becomes the norm and if you didnt get it, its YOUR fault the engine is shagged?

 

 

[Admin]

For those that want to know, Moderators do not have access to PMs. Naturally I do have access because they are in the database the same as posts and everything else because everything has to be stored somewhere for you to access it on your screen. Having said that the only time I would need to spend the time and trouble to log in to the server and go to the actual PM table in the database would be if someone is causing trouble like spamming other users etc. It might frighten you to know that many many people in IT have access to everything you do from the moment you turn your computer on. When you send an email many people can access it however IT people that have access to anything like this must have some degree of responsibility. I once worked in a position where I could access every single thing about every single person who worked in Victoria. There is a rule when working in these types of positions.

 

Also note that the only moderation that is done is when someone breaks the site rules which seems to happen a lot in these types of threads like calling another site user "an idiot" or saying "you are stupid" etc etc etc. I don't care who you are but the mods have to uphold the site rules and edit any posts that are made like this. If you want to call someone else an idiot or say they are stupid then go and do it elsewhere because no one likes, and even deserves not to be, attacked in any way by someone else behind a keyboard. It is so easy and simple to be decent to each other because we are all in this together

 

Simple, Rule 2.5 says:

 

"Posts which can be considered rude, unfriendly, angered, ill-mannered, inappropriate, uncalled-for, gratuitous, disturbing, un-respectful, unjust by other site members or site administration are not to be posted."

 

 

[Yenn]

If you get a runaway CHT rising very fast and above optimum I would suggest that you are geting detonation. Look at poor quality fuel ormaybe a plug overheating.

 

 

[jetjr]

How many engines sell for 10 years without improvement or upgrade parts even automotive? Do you see anyone sending out free upgrade every 24 months when a new model is released.

 

Im a bit lost Merv, your now criticising jabiru for making engines safer?? A stuck valve, with these new pistons, should be fairly uneventful.

 

I think a fault is in the marketing of LSA being somehow the same as a factory built certified aircraft "just like a half price Cessna"

 

They arent, never were and never will be, but many of us are owners whereas i never could afford the capital or maintenance on a 10 year old 172

 

I spend as much time making sure my english and spelling mistakes are corrected as posting, almost not worth the effort.

 

 

[facthunter]

There are always improvements in an evolving design. IF you are using that as a criticism, I can't see your point. It becomes a circular argument. Newer versions of many cars have "improvements". even Mercedes so should we take the older one in and request the mods be done to the older car for free?

 

The 912 isn't without faults either. Some of the later (still 912) had a few quality control problems (You just don't hear about them)' The gearbox costs money too to service. The parts are VERY expensive. To say they NEVER need them is not quite true..

 

Just about every piston engine flying is aircooled. Plenty of them overheated. It's a lot easier to control temps when they are liquid cooled. Do we want all engines to be liquid cooled?.

 

I would not attempt to talk anyone out of using a 912, but what about the later blown version I haven't heard good reports of it at all. The 80 HP motor is/was about as good in the reliability stakes as any will be I reckon. Nev

 

 

[jetjr]

Yep And a serious portion of the Jabiru engined aircraft require 120 hp. So the "compared to Rotax"debate is a waste of breath

 

Opps sorry unnecessary capital letter in first sentence

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Ok so now we can compare to automotive engines?

 

Jet you know very well I'm not against a safer design, you have missed my point entirely.

 

I don't know how else to say it, and I can't keep up with the rules about exactly what comparisons can be made. So I'll just go mow the lawn with my old brigs n stratin that hasn't required any major ( or minor ) mods in decades.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Just a quick one nev. When you search the jab sales website does it say " evolving design" in th engine specs?

 

If you buy soenthing you should expect it to work as is.

 

 

[facthunter]

Whatever you say merv. I only say what I think is the situation. The market decides at the time, and the engines were certified in some forms. Some problems seem to be related to things like lean mixture recommendations some years back now. until then I can't recall much angst with the engines at all. They set their tappets and if something was amiss they investigated it.. The first engines were 1600's with the rods running direct on the crankshaft. Parts have always been considered cheap by world standards. Nev

 

 

[gandalph]

And here, we arrive at the point. If it aint broke, why would there be a new improved version at all? The new version becomes the norm and if you didnt get it, its YOUR fault the engine is shagged?

Merv, at the risk of upsetting Nev further by using a car analogy - if we follow your view of " if it ain't broke, why would there be an improved version at all". Why aren't we all still driving the equivalent of model T's.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Merv, at the risk of upsetting Nev further by using a car analogy - if we follow your view of " if it ain't broke, why would there be an improved version at all". Why aren't we all still driving the equivalent of model T's.

Thats ok Gandalph, we are back to using car analogies now.

There is a diff between advancing a design, and bandaid engineering. How many AD's and SB's for through bolts are there?

 

Decompressed (shimmed heads) etc.All marketed as 'improvements . Then a few months later, nah, through bolts need upping again, take out the shimms. This is not Advancing a design, its patching up problems.

 

If we are using car analogies again, who has ever replaced an old engine with a brand new one in an old car when the car was operating normally?

 

 

[gandalph]

Also note that the only moderation that is done is when someone breaks the site rules which seems to happen a lot in these types of threads like calling another site user "an idiot" or saying "you are stupid" etc etc etc. I don't care who you are but the mods have to uphold the site rules and edit any posts that are made like this. If you want to call someone else an idiot or say they are stupid then go and do it elsewhere because no one likes, and even deserves not to be, attacked in any way by someone else behind a keyboard. It is so easy and simple to be decent to each other because we are all in this together

Simple, Rule 2.5 says:

 

"Posts which can be considered rude, unfriendly, angered, ill-mannered, inappropriate, uncalled-for, gratuitous, disturbing, un-respectful, unjust by other site members or site administration are not to be posted."

Thanks for the clarification Ian.

 

I, and many others here appreciate the value of this site and the effort that you and the moderators put into maintaining the standards even though some of us may get narkey about some of the editing that takes place.

 

The bottom line is it's your site and you set the rules.

 

I just wonder about post #441 in the "Yet another jab down" thread. Seems to me to contravene rule 2.5 pretty comprehensively. I understand the frustration in that post but leading by example would have been a better option in my opinion.

 

 

[facthunter]

One version of the Mercedes off road I saw some years ago cited about 20 improvements over the previous model that was introduced some 3 or 4 years before. Something doesn't have to be broke to be improved. It's happening all the time. The logic of your statement eludes me, gandalph. Do you really stick by it?. You can tell me, I won't tell anyone.

 

Regarding replacing car engines with newer versions/ ones . It IS sometimes done cars are not kept long unless they have some collector value, and then original (with all faults) is best.

 

. No one wants an old car otherwise, Except people like me who keep them till they are worn out.. because there are many more worthwhile things to spend money on. Nev

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Fair enough.

What RAA standards are you talking about ?.........RAA maintenance authority holders are require to maintain per the manufacturers maintenance instructions ........RAA don't produce those.

 

 

[Admin]

just wonder about post #441 in the "Yet another jab down" thread.

I am out for dinner with Corrine, it's her birthday, and as I can't see the post numbers on my phone I will check in the morning

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I'm left wondering this.... Just what do some of you people want Jabiru to do?

 

The through-bolts are already oversized. Do you want them bigger?

 

Do you want CASA to ban air-cooled engines? At least the only one they can, that is the Jabiru one?

 

Don't be confused here... CASA can only stop things, it can't make anything good happen.

 

I THINK you want Jabiru to transcend the laws of physics and chemistry, to make Jabiru engines magically immune from these laws.

 

Finally, I have to agree with Motzartmerv and say that the Jabiru handbook max temps are too high, they are MAX temps and they assume there are no other issues, like the fuel being less than perfect. I agree with staying well under these temps.

 

 

[Keenaviator]

What RAA standards are you talking about ?.........RAA maintenance authority holders are require to maintain per the manufacturers maintenance instructions ........RAA don't produce those.

Ross, I was just defusing - not interested in getting into an online blue with someone I've never met.

Laurie