CASA - Draft Proposal for Jabiru Aircraft

[biggles]

Over the last week, you would all be aware of the developments surrounding the draft CASA instrument in regarding Jabiru Engines. The SAAA, and its National Council & staff are very cognisant of this draft. We have some very real concerns, not only with this current issue but any precedence that it may set which could affect our rights as an association both now or in the future.

 

We are not as yet in possession of all the facts relating to this current draft instrument, nor do we understand some of the dynamics of the instrument or why it relates directly to engines fitted to aircraft operated by our members. I can offer you assurance that we have been involved in talks with the relevant bodies to seek information in order to be well informed.

 

We do not have any clear cut answers or assurances despite our work to date, and while we have not communicated to the membership the current status, we are certainly taking a very keen interest in this problem and will be reacting accordingly once we are fully informed. It is far better to communicate some outcomes, rather than a communication that has no substance to it. We feel however that although we have nothing to offer as yet, the work is well underway. This advice is to assure you that were are on the job.

 

SAAA National Council have the interests and rights of our members first and foremost. When able, Geoff will release a member document clearly stating what we understand, what our concerns are, and how we are addressing them.

 

I understand everyone's concern, especially the Jabiru owners. I assure you we are addressing the impact not only of this issue, but possible future instruments affecting our membership. We will ensure that the rights of the SAAA members are heard and understood and not eroded. We will be making a submission to CASA before the 27th November on behalf of our organisation. Our argument will be based on factual information which takes time to compile.

 

 

[turboplanner]

That RAA interview sounded terrible. Monk arguing that his RAA budget concerns take priority over member safety and well being is a good reason to ignore the problem!

Which interview are you talking about FT; I'm a bit doubtful that he would have said exactly that.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Would someone mind posting the statistics which indicated 40 failures in the last 12 months, or direct me to the Post number please?

 

I think Motz said they were a few pages back, but if they are I didn't find them.

 

 

[01rmb]

Would someone mind posting the statistics which indicated 40 failures in the last 12 months, or direct me to the Post number please?I think Motz said they were a few pages back, but if they are I didn't find them.

From RA-Aus response to CASA - Replicated in post #207

 

Type Jabiru Rotax Others All (includes other engine types)

 

Hours flown 41834 71626 17767 131227

 

Landings 92735 145638 22010 260383

 

Engine failures (full or partial) 28 16 7 51

 

Failure rate per hour 0.07% 0.02% 0.04% 0.04%

 

Failure rate per landing 0.03% 0.01% 0.03% 0.02%

 

Hours per failure 1494 4477 2538 2573

 

Landings per failure 3312 9102 3144 5106

 

 

[fly_tornado]

TP have a listen http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2014/11/bst_20141120_0836.mp3

 

straight off the bat, he waffles on about loosing $130,000 from cancelled regos

 

 

[Chird65]

TP have a listen http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2014/11/bst_20141120_0836.mp3straight off the bat, he waffles on about loosing $130,000 from cancelled regos

Which then would not be available for Safety programs or operational costs to monitor everything. Thus less safety.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

then he goes on about 3000 less members and another $600K hole.

 

Real doom and gloom stuff

 

 

[kgwilson]

In regard to the stats, CASA has stated in its 2nd release extending the response period it doesn't have the details. The number 40 came from a press report in Bundaberg. See my post No 375. The original 0.03% amounted to 27 based on 90,000 movements as reported by RA-Aus in its first email. Then the figure is quoted as 28 by Ra-Aus in its second email. Then I read it was 29 but can't remember where that came from. My post No 508 asks the questions about stats. The other figure from Jabiru itself is 35 through bolt failures out of 3665 engines produced since 2005. That is all we have at this stage. Jabiru says they have been sending engine tear down data to CASA for years but CASA somehow have no information. No-one has any real statistical data or if they have they are keeping them to them selves or have lost or misplaced it.

 

I asked the questions of what stats CASA had to back up its draft instrument in my Email to Lee Ungermann. No response yet other than release 2 which waters down the original "high and increasing rate of failure" to

 

"pending identification and rectification of the causes of what appears to be an extraordinary high rate of partial and

 

complete Jabiru engine failures." See the Monday release below

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/newrules/download/cd1425ss-clarification-extension-consultation-period.pdf

 

 

[turboplanner]

 

From RA-Aus response to CASA - Replicated in post #207Type Jabiru Rotax Others All (includes other engine types)

 

Hours flown 41834 71626 17767 131227

 

Landings 92735 145638 22010 260383

 

Engine failures (full or partial) 28 16 7 51

 

Failure rate per hour 0.07% 0.02% 0.04% 0.04%

 

Failure rate per landing 0.03% 0.01% 0.03% 0.02%

 

Hours per failure 1494 4477 2538 2573

 

Landings per failure 3312 9102 3144 5106

Just straightened the columns up a little to make it easier to read. [EDIT: BUGGER, there's some formatting ambedded there so I'll type them up] [FIXED, above]

 

Not very helpful to us, I agree, but the issues are between CASA - Jabiru, so I expect a whole lot more was shared in commercial confidence

 

Rotax needs to be notated, as others have said, to confirm that two strokes have been deleted from the data.

 

I've seen some registration numbers bandied around, but does anyone have the current numbers of registered Jabiru and Rotax four stroke?

 

RAA have more data on each forced landing as you can see from what I posted in the past - which came directly from the RAA monthly magazine, and in that data, in general, you can pick up forced landings caused by through bolts and exhaust valves, and you can pick up forced landings caused by poor maintenance.

 

However, the statistics that some of you are screaming for are not going to happen unless the owner reports them. If he fails to give a comprehensive report, either because he doesn't want to or he's not technical, then it's all over. Things like which cylinder did the through bolt or exhaust valve fail on could tell us a trend perhaps, for example, all the failures occur on No1, or failures have been occurring on all cylinders except No4.

 

Perhaps if we need better incident data, there needs to be a specific report form to prompt the owner, or even an additional Tech person employed to interview the owner.

 

However, CASA do not need to be rocket scientists or qualified engineers because their job is just to identify a safety issue such as a forced landing trend, and issue a requirement for the manufacture to address it.On many occasions the manufacturer prefers it that way because he can do his own development and retain a competitive edge, which in spite of the doomsayers is very possible in this case.

 

For the same reason, we don't have to be told the exact causes of the forced landings by CASA or the Manufacturer, we just have to abide by CASA's safety instructions.

 

 

[kgwilson]

then he goes on about 3000 less members and another $600K hole.Real doom and gloom stuff

I just listened to the interview & have no problem with Michael making these statements as they emphasise the heavy handed approach by CASA. When this sort of action is proposed you need to bring out the heavy artillery. It may be a worst case scenario but it needs to be stated.

 

 

[Admin]

CASA wishes to advise that a Clarification has been issued to Consultation Draft - CD 1425SS - Operation limitations for aircraft fitted with Jabiru engines.

 

View the Clarification and on the CASA website: http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_102279

 

Additionally, CASA has decided to extend the consultation period by an additional 7 days.

 

All comments may now be submitted to CASA at [email protected] until the close of business on Thursday 27 November 2014.

 

 

[01rmb]

The safety practices in workplaces changed when people were encouraged to identify incidents, not just accidents, with no blame being laid. Proper investigation of serious incidents with potential for an accident then resulted in changes to practices, procedures and other preventative measures. It changed the culture dramatically and resulted in far safer places of work.

 

If the same happened in our aviation industry then there would be decent changes realised. The trouble is some people make loud noises with poor facts and then the regulator jumps out of the trees with a large stick and belts everyone senseless. CASA needs to change the way they react if they want people to provide proper reports and enable decent investigation to happen. Only then will there be a real change in the way that problems will be properly managed.

 

 

[facthunter]

CASA have had to back off many actions done too quickly before. eg the ASIC where they said no plane could fly without one and the required inspections on fuel injection systems on GA aircraft. (There have been plenty of others) IF CASA applied the same logic to helicopter operations, at certain times they would ground the lot of them.

 

I recall a survey in the 70's where 27% were written off annually. Cop that young Harry. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I just listened to the interview & have no problem with Michael making these statements as they emphasise the heavy handed approach by CASA. When this sort of action is proposed you need to bring out the heavy artillery. It may be a worst case scenario but it needs to be stated.

They are wildly inaccurate statements, you won't see 1000 planes removed from the registry or 3000 members leaving.

 

Flying schools/clubs will still be able to use Jabirus and owners can continue flying them.

 

Talk about hysterical over reactions.

 

 

[biggles]

". ..... .and then the regulator jumps out of the trees with a large stick and belts everyone senseless. "

 

I like that ' rmb ' . Bob

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Perhaps a little dramatic, but I thought he did a good job there. Some good points, and he speaks well.

 

 

[Chird65]

They are wildly inaccurate statements, you won't see 1000 planes removed from the registry or 3000 members leaving.Flying schools/clubs will still be able to use Jabirus and owners can continue flying them.

Talk about hysterical over reactions.

So lets say I am a student;

 

I can't fly out of busy airports as that would be over populated areas;

 

I can't go Solo from anywhere;

 

I can't determine if this is a real safety issue or not.

 

The interview needs to be in context not grabbing bites then commenting.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

No you will have to give up your dream of ever flying because you chose a flying school that wouldn't buy a suitable trainer or move to a school that had an non-Jabiru trainer.

 

The big losers are the owners, from a political sense it looks like RAA and Jabiru are conspiring against them and CASA. If I was Lee Ungerman, I would want a please explain after that presser.

 

 

[kgwilson]

The safety practices in workplaces changed when people were encouraged to identify incidents, not just accidents, with no blame being laid. Proper investigation of serious incidents with potential for an accident then resulted in changes to practices, procedures and other preventative measures. It changed the culture dramatically and resulted in far safer places of work.If the same happened in our aviation industry then there would be decent changes realised. The trouble is some people make loud noises with poor facts and then the regulator jumps out of the trees with a large stick and belts everyone senseless. CASA needs to change the way they react if they want people to provide proper reports and enable decent investigation to happen. Only then will there be a real change in the way that problems will be properly managed.

The only way things will change is if the recommendations of the Forsyth report are implemented. CASA has a "Big Brother" heavy handed approach to almost everything. Changing that culture will not only need the new broom they have just got but for the broom to sweep clean. This can happen in a private organisation because it is demanded by shareholders. It almost never happens in government departments as the hierarchy including the politicians have a vested interest & quietly sweep everything under the carpet.

 

 

[turboplanner]

TP have a listen http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2014/11/bst_20141120_0836.mp3straight off the bat, he waffles on about loosing $130,000 from cancelled regos

Radio Station 5RM is 5 River Murray based in Berri, SA

Had a listen, OH SH!T!

 

 

[gandalph]

then he goes on about 3000 less members and another $600K hole.Real doom and gloom stuff

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Fourth I suspect there is a resonant frequency being generated, .

I mentioned "evil TVs" (torsional vibrations), I assume the throughbolt is free floating in the cases and the solid point of contact is the thread join to the nut - i.e. the common point of failure.

 

F-T.......my read is Bruce has good experience with his jab, that's it, period.Why you came back with ????? Puzzles me.

Bruce posted a throughbolt failure and cracked barrel, that's a "good experience"?

 

Greetings allI own and fly a Jabitu LSA 55 (solid lifter 2200). I have been flying behind Jabiru 2200 engines for over 6 years including flying school aircraft and have never had one let me down.

Anyone seen my dog? He's got one ear missing, 3 legs, half a tail and one eye sewn over, answers to "Lucky" ....

 

 

[01rmb]

They are wildly inaccurate statements, you won't see 1000 planes removed from the registry or 3000 members leaving.Flying schools/clubs will still be able to use Jabirus and owners can continue flying them.

Talk about hysterical over reactions.

If as an owner or a pilot, the aircraft is effectively grounded because you can't use it for training or touring with your wife and you can't sell it, then why would you not just shove it to the back corner of the airfield or hanger and not pay your registration and membership fees until the problem is sorted out? Of course you wouldn't pay. And if it never gets sorted out then you may never again.

 

Hence why it is important to come up with something that achieves the goal of improving engine reliability but without major collateral damage. Think of the consequences of your actions before you do something and you won't then be surprised by what happens. I optimistically hope that when faced with the reality of the consequences of these actions that CASA works out a way to better work with the whole recreational aviation industry (not just Jabiru) to achieve improvements.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

What happens if your Jabiru is destroyed by a gust of wind one day?

 

 

[01rmb]

What happens if your Jabiru is destroyed by a gust of wind one day?

Insurance... what's your point?