CASA - Draft Proposal for Jabiru Aircraft

[fly_tornado]

You moved on

 

 

[SDQDI]

Lol I thought for a moment there that FT was suggesting insurance fraud:stirrer:

 

I wonder if this comes into place if we will see a surge in jab on ground fires?

 

Please excuse this totally useless post, and I don't mean to feed the troll (honestly though it's not the only unproductive post now is it )

 

 

[motzartmerv]

The owner of our training jab is already in this boat. The aeroplane is parked up un insured, can't afford To fix it. Busted through bolt and now it's discoverd all the heads are cracked.

 

She's paid for the engine twice in 1000 hours.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Both feet, I said . . .

 

 

[01rmb]

The owner of our training jab is already in this boat. The aeroplane is parked up un insured, can't afford To fix it. Busted through bolt and now it's discoverd all the heads are cracked.She's paid for the engine twice in 1000 hours.

I can feel her pain and she has a valid grievance with Jabiru. I have paid more for maintenance than I have intended and would like as well. As unfortunate and as unjust as it is - that is still no reason why every one of the other 1000 owners needs to have their flying privileges restricted by the heavy handed regulator on the premise of not being as good as the premium engine. The proposed actions by CASA are still not going to help her.

 

 

[deadstick]

Could be a problem here.I get 3000- 3050 at takeoff with full fuel.

Phil

Which propellor are you running Phil? I too get 3050 static but with the sensenich not the standard jab paddle.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

All right, out of all this shouting & tumult, what do we have? Let me see if I can summarise it:

 

1. we have a statistic - not necessarily a very good-quality statistic, but still, it's about all we currently have - of one engine failure in around 3300 landings - i.e. 0.03% of movements. Roughly a probability of one in a thousand per flying hour.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

The proposed actions by CASA are still not going to help her.

Probably true, but at the end of the day, the result is the same.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Which propellor are you running Phil? I too get 3050 static but with the sensenich not the standard jab paddle.

Scimitar for the last 10 months or so.

 

About a 100 rpm up on the original, very silent and a slight increase of speed.

 

Phil.

 

 

[gandalph]

Anyone seen my dog? He's got one ear missing, 3 legs, half a tail and one eye sewn over, answers to "Lucky" ....

Bex, you are so funny you crack me up.

 

Sometimes.

 

 

[turboplanner]

All right, out of all this shouting & tumult, what do we have? Let me see if I can summarise it:1. we have a statistic - not necessarily a very good-quality statistic, but still, it's about all we currently have - of one engine failure in around 3300 landings - i.e. 0.03% of movements. Roughly a probability of one in a thousand per flying hour.

There's no provision for a lottery on killing someone these days.

 

 

[dutchroll]

It almost never happens in government departments as the hierarchy including the politicians have a vested interest & quietly sweep everything under the carpet.

This is the problem as far as Government Department behaviour goes, pure and simple:

1) Pollies want to stay in power.

 

2) To do this they must have a majority of people vote for them.

 

3) Government departments must therefore do things which a majority of people will hopefully agree with (overall, averaged across all departments).

 

4) A majority of people are easily swayed by perception, especially in regard to things they consider dangerous or risky.

 

5) If you are on the wrong side of this perception (whether or not it is accurate), you must get on the right side or you will suffer from points 1), 2), and 3).

 

 

[Yenn]

Dutchroll your post above does not apply to CASA They are above the law , will not take any notice of pollies ar ministers. They say it is a safety matter so nobody dare question them. Besides they have Lee Ungerman on their team.

 

 

[poteroo]

This is the problem as far as Government Department behaviour goes, pure and simple:1) Pollies want to stay in power.

 

2) To do this they must have a majority of people vote for them.

 

3) Government departments must therefore do things which a majority of people will hopefully agree with (overall, averaged across all departments).

 

4) A majority of people are easily swayed by perception, especially in regard to things they consider dangerous or risky.

 

5) If you are on the wrong side of this perception (whether or not it is accurate), you must get on the right side or you will suffer from points 1), 2), and 3).

Correct - Perception IS Reality

 

And this explains the recent strike on Angel Flight, the unworkable decision on multicom and area frequencies, the unworkable new rules for low level testing and currency in CASR Part 61, and the tightening up of the medical standards for RPL.

 

happy days,

 

 

[01rmb]

Probably true, but at the end of the day, the result is the same.

For her, but why drag down every other Jabiru owner, business including training schools that uses Jabirus and potentially every other business including RA-Aus if the remaining aircraft is not large enough of a critical mass to support ongoing operations.

 

 

[bandit]

There are obviously some very knowledgeable people on here – and a lot have been involved in aviation a lot longer than I have – so – I have a question

 

When Jabiru left the meeting with CASA, they (reportedly) said they “have a lot of work to do”

 

So, how will Jabiru respond ??

 

Compile their own statistics in an attempt to prove their engines are reliable ?

 

Release even bigger / stronger through bolts?

 

Specify that only AVGAS is to be used with their engines ? (removes the variable of MOGAS)

 

Release their own LCH

 

Takes care of the overheating issue (even with student pilots)

 

Removes the issues from variable fuel quality (aka Rotax don’t have issues with MOGAS)

 

(seems there is a perfectly good splined drive at the back of every Jab engine – good to drive a water pump- unless you are already using it for vacuum)

 

Authorise CAMIT mods – unlikely based on what others have already said.

 

None of the above ??

 

I own a Jabiru and would love to see the engine reliability improved

 

 

[dutchroll]

Dutchroll your post above does not apply to CASA They are above the law , will not take any notice of pollies ar ministers. They say it is a safety matter so nobody dare question them. Besides they have Lee Ungerman on their team.

Whatever it is which has coloured your view is unfortunate, however that is not how Government departments work. I'd suggest if you were privy to the inner workings of the decisions which made you think that, you would reconsider your opinion.

I have been on the receiving end of a "ministerial" while in the military years ago, and I have never seen so many people jump so quickly and so high. Same goes for the associated civilian bureaucracy.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Curse the software; I could not finish my post. Here goes again:

 

All right, out of all this shouting & tumult, what do we have? Let me see if I can summarise it:

 

1. We have a statistic - not necessarily a very good-quality statistic, but still, it's about all we currently have - of one engine failure in around 3300 landings - i.e. 0.03% of movements. Roughly a probability of one in a thousand per flying hour.

 

2. As a result of this statistic, plus a lot of noise from certain persons, RAA demanded action from CASA. In so doing, it is arguable that RAA did not consider the statistic in the proper context of the other statistical risks that apply to any recreational aircraft to a greater or lesser degree; they merely saw that the Jabiru statistic was not as good as that for the Rotax 912, realised their impotence to do anything constructive about that, and lodged a rather unthinking complaint.

 

3. CASA over-reacted, causing panic amongst Jabiru owners and operators, and degrading the resale value of their assets; the total financial loss is likely to run into tens of millions of dollars. To a monkey with a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

 

4. Many owners have de-registered their aircraft, and many have resigned from RAA, which in all probability threatens to cause RAA to collapse.

 

5. There are persons who may have a valid grievance, who have either launched or threatened legal action against Jabiru, and who are still making a lot of noise, which may or may not result in a class action against Jabiru. These people are, it would seem, out for blood, and do not care what the collateral damage may be.

 

6. The threat of any such action can only have the result that Jabiru will resist all claims that their product is defective; to do otherwise would be to admit liability, which would be suicidal.

 

7. The collateral damage will be that the Jabiru owners who would simply like the probability of an engine failure reduced from 0.03% per movement, to perhaps 0.015%, are most unlikely to have that available from Jabiru.

 

8. CAMit (CAE) can provide that sort of improvement, but they are hamstrung by their dependence on the ongoing income from manufacturing about ten Jabiru engines a month for Jabiru, to Jabiru's design. If Jabiru folds, CAMit folds. So the collateral damage will also prevent any "fix" from CAMit.

 

9. Aircraft having either E24 or 19 registration, or VH experimental, are free to fit a CAE engine. In any case, the inclusion of experimental aircraft in the CASA draft Instrument is invalid, and can be expected to be removed. (RAA could do something useful by trying to hasten this).

 

10. The CASA personalities involved very likely have their back so the wall, with Ministerial "please explains" to answer - so they are likely to do everything possible to justify their actions.

 

So, in summary, we have a completely stupid situation on all sides. It is not constructive to point fingers at this stage, it's far too late for that. This is a lose-lose situation. Either the rock or the hard place has to back off.

 

To quote Mark Twain:

 

"I wish I loved the human race;

 

I wish I loved its silly face;

 

And when I'm introduced to one,

 

I wish I thought "What jolly fun."

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

then he goes on about 3000 less members and another $600K hole.Real doom and gloom stuff

Ah you wish Ft...........

 

 

[motzartmerv]

For her, but why drag down every other Jabiru owner, business including training schools that uses Jabirus and potentially every other business including RA-Aus if the remaining aircraft is not large enough of a critical mass to support ongoing operations.

Whos dragging anybody down? Im stating the current case of one owner. Im just one little flying school in a big pond.

 

 

[jetjr]

Interesting article for some who might not have seen it http://flightdesign.com/files/Media/The Aviation Consumer - LSA Accidents.pdf

 

There are more than one cause of safety issues, some more serious than 0.03% engine failure rate

 

 

[bexrbetter]

There are more than one cause of safety issues, some more serious than 0.03% engine failure rate

Yeah, nuts in the cockpit rather than nuts on the throughbolts.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Ah you wish Ft...........

If you are trying for the most unpopular member of RAA in the northern region, you can relax I think you have already achieved that.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Ah you wish Ft...........

It seems stupid for the RAA president to make a ludicrous claim like that. How to get CASA offside

 

 

[SDQDI]

If you are trying for the most unpopular member of RAA in the northern region, you can relax I think you have already achieved that.

So it's all Maj's fault??? I know it's an emotionally charged subject but just because he has been vocal about this and now CASA has/is or just looks like they will do something about it doesn't make it all Maj's fault!