CASA - Draft Proposal for Jabiru Aircraft

[bexrbetter]

More from Ron on the American side, note the very last paragraph of the 2nd post ...

 

Here's the breakdown. The first number is the percent of accidents due to engine issues, and the second pair is the number of cases attributed to the engines vs. the overall number of accident occurring to homebuilts with that type of engine installed.

 

Jabiru: 16.9% (10/59)

 

Continental: 13.4% (42 /313)

 

Lycoming: 11.9% (146/1226)

 

Auto Conversions: 28.8% (126/438)

 

Rotax 912: 12.5% (29/232)

 

Rotax (all): 20.4% (138/675)

 

Note that this reflects the *corrected* figures. My original pass had a bad filter for the Rotax 912, and didn't include even half the number of actual aircraft. The percentage didn't change much, though.

 

For the ten accidents that I've attributed to the Jabiru, the cause of the engine failure wasn't determined in seven of them. Only in one of the cases was the engine damaged too severely for troubleshooting.

 

Of course, these sorts of instances can be operator-triggered, too. Claiming the carb heat was on, when it wasn't, switching the fuel switch to a full tank to hide the fact that they'd tried to run off a dry one, etc. There are also potential temporary issues, such as vapor lock. I traditionally lump these with the overall engine issues. The Rotax 912 has an almost identical percentage of unexplained failures (20 out of 28), so the relative standing is not affected.

 

The other three Jabiru failures were:

 

The loss of engine power due to a connecting rod failure. (DFW09CA184)

 

A failure of an engine cylinder exhaust valve due to the buildup of lead deposits on the valve stem and fatigue cracking of the valve stem. (ERA12TA542)

 

The third case (CEN12FA217) had multiple engine issues, and the NTSB didn't make a specific call as to why the engine quit.

 

Not included where two cases the engine problems were caused by builder error (wrong kind of sealant on a fuel tank, and an improperly installed oil hose) and a single case of maintenance error (bad hose clamp installation).

 

As far as the Rotax 912 cases, as I mentioned above, 20 out of the 28 cases were unexplained engine failures. Of the eight remaining, all were related to peripheral systems. Three involved the fuel system on the engine side of the firewall (blocked fuel filter, blocked fuel nozzle, chafed fuel line letting air in). I count these among engine issues because they are closely physically associated with the engine itself.

 

One was a double spark-plug failure causing a reduction in power.

 

Three were due to problems in the oil system, including a blocked oil tube, a bad oil fitting, and a collapse of a oil hose.

 

Two were due to carburetor mechanical issues including not screwing the carb down and problems with the air induction system.

 

In the Builder/Maintainer error category, there were three cases where builder error led to an engine failure, and another three for the maintainer. Again, these are not counted against the engine.

 

However, when reviewing the Rotax 912 cases that I did count, the NTSB noted builder/maintainer error in relation to two of the cases related to the oil system. If I indeed switched these to the human error category, the Rotax 912's "engine issue" ratio would drop by nearly a percentage point.

 

What caught my eye on this was the Rotax 912's lack of what I term "Engine Internal" cases, despite a much larger installed base. No connecting rod or valve failures, unlike the Jabiru.

 

Ron Wanttaja

 

Well, that was interesting. I got curious as to whether the Australian Transportation Safety Board had downloadable records like the US's NTSB.

 

Turns out they do, but not at the same level of detail. They include the accidents/incidents, and major information, but don't include what type of engine was installed.

 

On the assumption that Jabiru aircraft had Jabiru engines, I sorted on that aircraft type.

 

In a one-year period (Oct 13 to Oct 14) there were 35 Jabiru accidents. Eleven of these involved engine failures other than pilot-induced (fuel starvation). Four of these were in the "Undetermined" category, though some might still be under investigation.

 

All the rest...seven accidents...were due to internal failures of the Jabriu engine. Five were due to broken through-bolts. The other two were due to a failed piston and a faulty valve keeper.

 

Note that this examination is unfair to Jabiru in a number of ways. We don't know how many Jabirus are on the Australian registry. I took a crack at the online listing, but the number of results were so low that I don't trust my process.

 

Second, the key point would be the comparison to Rotax 912, and I don't see any way to do that comparison using the Australian data. The data I found doesn't include the installed engine.

 

With THAT said...well, if the FAA saw a particular brand of engine suffered five failures of an engine internal component within a year, they'd clap an AD note on that engine so fast your head would spin.

 

Ron Wanttaja

 

 

[Guest john]

The 11th hour has now come for Jabiru Aircraft(meaning 1 week to go) to meet with Camit to hopefully agree on a Commercial Joint Venture between both of these Companies ( as both of these Companies are good genuine Aussie Companies) so as to keep the Jabiru fleet continuing to fly around the world without draconian restrictions in the future. after which no man knoweth the day or the hour (except CASA ) when CASA will bring down (in all probability) their AXE on Jabiru Aircraft if in the event some sort of Joint Venture is not formed between these 2 Companies.

 

Let's hope for the sake of all Jabiru owners & Pilots around the world that the Proprietors & Managers of both of these Companies have nothing better to do tonight but to log onto Recreational Flying & peruse the threads pertaining to this debate, & somehow get together as grown men around a table this coming week for the betterment of both of their respective Companies & Jabiru owners & Pilots & work out a solution that will be acceptable to CASA & furthermore to enable the fleet of Jabiru aircraft to be able to continue to fly around the world with safety & confidence in the future.

 

 

[jetjr]

Ft, what would CASA do to experimentals

 

They can fit a steam or electric engine if they like or maybe something they designed and built themselves

 

 

[dazza 38]

Isn't jab investigating itself, and going to produce " their report "Bewilds me why for example.....Camit submit a "report" as well.....hell, they've been onboard from day one, and have proven mods addressing issues.....drop this report on casa's desk and let's see what happins.

This current "survey" whatever that jab are doing, from what I'm reading here, it's a damn joke.

I would suspect that Jabiru's own report would be very creative .

 

 

[Camel]

The 11th hour has now come for Jabiru Aircraft(meaning 1 week to go) to meet with Camit to hopefully agree on a Commercial Joint Venture between both of these Companies ( as both of these Companies are good genuine Aussie Companies) so as to keep the Jabiru fleet continuing to fly around the world without draconian restrictions in the future. after which no man knoweth the day or the hour (except CASA ) when CASA will bring down (in all probability) their AXE on Jabiru Aircraft if in the event some sort of Joint Venture is not formed between these 2 Companies.Let's hope for the sake of all Jabiru owners & Pilots around the world that the Proprietors & Managers of both of these Companies have nothing better to do tonight but to log onto Recreational Flying & peruse the threads pertaining to this debate, & somehow get together as grown men around a table this coming week for the betterment of both of their respective Companies & Jabiru owners & Pilots & work out a solution that will be acceptable to CASA & furthermore to enable the fleet of Jabiru aircraft to be able to continue to fly around the world with safety & confidence in the future.

Are you making a factual statement or just presuming ? As someone said jabiru is not working with Camit on solutions ? If you don't have facts or knowledge, please do not create false information or BS as it is commonly known !

 

 

[dazza 38]

Is this total bull sh!tI've searched the net and can't find articles about structural cracks in Tecnams.

Our flying club have 3 Tecnams with thousands of hours use for training .....no cracks as yet.

 

I hope there is an enquiry if it's true .......putting your head in the sand about safety helps no one

 

cheers Butch

It's all right, he doesn't know the difference between loose and lose either.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Bex, have a look at Chinese history. The world's most controlling bureaucracy was Ming dynasty China. Even worse than Stalinist Russia, they dictated every facet of a person's life, even to the colour of their clothes and the design of their houses. They made China into a failed state. They behaved like CASA only to everybody.

 

I'm used to the idea of being free and I'm having a hard time finding out it aint so.

 

 

[jetjr]

moving the fleet to #19 means owners are able to access non approved modifications.t.

From where?

 

Both Jabiru and CAE will be gone.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

They behaved like CASA only to everybody.I'm used to the idea of being free and I'm having a hard time finding out it aint so.

I'm not debating China here.

 

As for big bad CASA, I've run a number of businesses in different arenas and built 2 houses myself in Oz, "CASA'ers" are a dime a dozen and some of you guys don't appreciate the freedoms you do have relative to other activities.

 

Try building your own car or motorcycle one day.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Good comparison Bex, they have no idea.

 

 

[nickduncs84]

100% wrong. We live in a society together and we accept both the rewards and limitations of doing so.

You've been in China too long Bex. In all seriousness, I had dinner with an American expat in Vietnam once and his view was pretty much this. In some countries, individual freedoms are not as important as others. It's not a good or bad thing its just that different countries have different priorities. The man I met had made a decision to move to Vietnam because he chose to adopt a society with views that were better aligned with his. Hard to understand for your typical freedom loving American but true nonetheless.

In Australia, most people value their individual freedoms. So as far as most of us are concerned, it does annoy us when the government gets involved in our affairs to the point where it impacts our freedoms. Even the people on this site that are kicking and screaming about how dangerous Jabiru engines are.

 

The problem is that unfortunately most of us are self centred morons. It's just how us humans are wired. We don't give it much thought when governments do something stupid. That is until it affects us, then it's very important.

 

By any measure imaginable CASA are a deeply flawed organisation, but to most people it doesn't matter. All they see is that Qantas planes aren't falling out of the sky. The fact that they are killing an industry and destroying jobs for very little in the way of safety goes relatively unnoticed.

 

So even if you think Jabiru have a problem with their engines, sign the petition because of what this really represents. Another unjustified dig at recreational and general aviation.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

You've been in China too long Bex.

All societies are based on regulation and conservatism. That's why you don't kill your annoying neighbor and stop at red lights on the way to work, on time of course, listening to the controlled content on your radio. From the moment you wake up in the morning, and put clothes on by law, as to not offend others, you are following doctrines.

 

The reward for following those doctrines is the reflection of the above, your neighbor doesn't kill you, others wait and allow you to cross your green light etc, etc.

 

So even if you think Jabiru have a problem with their engines, sign the petition because of what this really represents. Another unjustified dig at recreational and general aviation.

I'm confused Nick, I do think Jab have some engine issues that have risked people's lives and may continue to do so, but you want me to help prevent the body responsible for doing something about it?

 

Serious question; What am I missing?

 

 

[dutchroll]

The whole thrust of the CARs was paternalistic - protecting people from themselves, whether they wanted this or not.

I don't necessarily totally agree with that. The thrust is generally protecting the others who unwittingly get roped in by the individuals taking the risk. I don't think CASA would have too many sleepless nights if a pilot taking his own risk killed himself somewhere remote.

However if he takes a risk which kills a class of 20 school kids in a crash in the suburbs, or kills himself along with his unwitting wife and 2 children, well that's a different ball game all together.

 

Many regs were/are historically born out of people doing stupid things and killing other people in addition to themselves. Those who don't take the risks have a right to live in relative safety which overrides the risk-taker's right to do what they like (and even the US Constitution does not grant an unfettered right to indulge in risk taking).

 

 

[nickduncs84]

All societies are based on regulation and conservatism. That's why you don't kill your annoying neighbor and stop at red lights on the way to work, on time of course, listening to the controlled content on your radio. From the moment you wake up in the morning, and put clothes on by law, as to not offend others, you are following doctrines.The reward for following those doctrines is the reflection of the above, your neighbor doesn't kill you, others wait and allow you to cross your green light etc, etc.

 

I'm confused Nick, I do think Jab have some engine issues that have risked people's lives and may continue to do so, but you want me to help prevent the body responsible for doing something about it?

 

Serious question; What am I missing?

I think given the length of this thread, it's pretty much all been covered and that I'm not going to add anything new but just to summarise my viewpoint:

1) just because they are less reliable than rotax doesn't mean they they should be banned. They have their place.

 

2) there are plenty of things that can bring you unstuck when you get in a plane. If we're going to get obsessive about statistics, why not ban single engine ifr or night vfr flights for ppl without an ir? And then once that happens, why stop there? Turbines are more reliable than piston engines so why not ban all piston engines? And two turbines is better than one, so let's get rid of all those pc-12s...

 

3) I'm not sure to what extent Jabiru management contributed but from the outside looking in, for casa to publish this draft instrument out of the blue is ridiculous. There should have at least been a notice or request for comment without any proposed actions attached before destroying the value of thousands of aircraft and risking the livlihood of dozens of flight school owners.

 

I could think of more but I'm sure it's been said. Point is that I don't believe Jabiru have risked peoples lives to a point beyond which is acceptable to the people who fly in them.

 

Just my view, but I think that if the goal is public safety (ie not the safety of pilots who should be expected to understand the risks they are taking on) then there are a number of things which would be far more effective.

 

 

[Powerin]

By any measure imaginable CASA are a deeply flawed organisation, but to most people it doesn't matter. All they see is that Qantas planes aren't falling out of the sky. The fact that they are killing an industry and destroying jobs for very little in the way of safety goes relatively unnoticed.

That's probably one of the wisest comments in this thread. We have to realise we are but 10,000 voices amongst 23,000,000. However, one thing that governments (and their departments) of today fail to appreciate is cause and effect.

One of the greatest freedoms and conveniences the general public enjoy today is the ability to fly anywhere in the country, or the world, at a price even the average Joe or Josette can usually afford. Even if ATPL pilots are little more than systems analysts these days, airlines and the general public demand that they actually know how to fly a plane. It is a truism in aviation that EVERY pilot starts in a single engined piston aircraft. Where are these pilots going to come from if the industry that trains them, both RAA and GA, cannot survive?

 

The pay is lousy for the investment required to fly commercially. So the system only survives by virtue of the fact that pilots love what they do (bit like farmers ). Eventually potential pilots are going to see that there are too many obstacles (such as CASA) to bother with following their dreams. This is what we need to be telling CASA and government. A significant slice of the country's economy relies on pilots. Someone has to light the fire of their passion for flying and train them (because they ain't gonna get rich doing it). While we might like to think of RAA as a recreational organisation we need to be pushing our role to government as an essential public service providing a stepping stone for future commercial pilots.

 

I'm one who thinks Jabiru need to seriously lift their game and until they do I would never buy one. But Michael Monck is exactly right in his excellent response...CASA is again indulging in tearing aviation down, supposedly in the name of safety, without even a cursory glance at cause and effect.

 

 

[Guest Ornis]

When the "flywheel bolts" were breaking with monotonous irregularity, and after Rod Stiff told me to put some Araldite around the heads ("then you can fly over that [Cook] Strait of yours"), a CAA engineer went over to have a chat with him; CASA denied all knowledge of the problem.

 

I understand CASA had a word with Napoleon recently and he said, "Pas ce soir, Josephine."

 

As you make your bed, so you must lie in it.

 

 

[Guest Ornis]

Araldite on the flywheel bolts hmmmm don't you mean the rotor buttons? No sane man would tell you to put araldite on flywheel bolts includong Rod Stiff.

Do I hear the sound of a penny dropping?

 

 

[Keith Page]

Do I hear the sound of a penny dropping?

Belzona or Devcon are a bit useful too.

 

Regards

 

KP.

 

 

[jetjr]

That the body has no chance of achieving the goal but will in fact prevent someone fixing the problem

 

The risk to people will continue and potentially worsen in an area where CASA have little purchase.

 

The next company or aircraft to be targeted could be you or yours. RAA could easily fold if this ends poorly

 

 

[facthunter]

Yes , It isn't the right answer and if this line of thinking persists the future is at best uncertain. WE must be capable of being a bit more objective. or we are going nowhere fast. Nev

 

 

[robinsm]

B..ger this, I am going flying. This is becoming circular and depressing. Doom and gloom solve nothing, Lets see what happens in the next 2 weeks and then argue on some facts, not supposition.

 

 

[facthunter]

I agree but you obviously don't fly a Jabiru powered aircraft which makes the current situation much more attention grabbing. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

Most people will continue flying regardless of the outcome.

 

If the total aircraft database is 2500, and the Jab market share 1000, that's only 40% of the market

 

If the colourful speculation comes true and Jabiru goes out of business (which I doubt), and 40% park their aircraft, the 40% will be taken up by other makes as new buyers come in.

 

It would be interesting to see what the market share shift has been in the past 5 years.

 

If RAA registrations and subscriptions drop by 40%, then the numbers would be about what they were, maybe in Lee Ungermann's time when the AUF/RAA was claimed to be more effective than it is now.

 

In my own experience with Jabiru J170, I had two complaints - rudder pedals locking and instability at slow speed, which were both fixed promptly.

 

It's amazing how the exaggerations come in when people get emotional.

 

I recall a few weeks ago Dafydd telling us how unfair the aviation system was, and I was tempted to do something about that, but if I look at the way the same Department of Infrastructure and Regional Services handles automotive issues I'm inclined to think the way they seem to be going with aviation is for the better.

 

For example in my Nissan there have been three safety issues which could cause serious injury or fatality.

 

Without waiting for a fatality, Nissan have issued three recalls.

 

1. A potential brake issue

 

2. A replacement of the genuine tow bar due to cracks found in several units

 

3. A replacement set of mag wheels due to cracks found in several units

 

Where a manufacturer doesn't issue a Recall, the Department orders it and there are sanctions

 

Under this system the Jabiru issues would have been addressed several years ago, it would all be over with many owners not losing the money they lost, dozens of forced landings would not have occurred, and we would not be seeing the farce we are seeing today.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

1) just because they are less reliable than rotax doesn't mean they they should be banned. They have their place.

I don't care about the comparison to Rotax, and I don't care, or call, for the banning of Jabirus either, the opposite in fact, I want to see them prosper but there seems enough evidence over considerable period of time to have some action warranted.

 

I'll grant you that in light of CAMit's 'work in progress', the timing seems a bit odd, but I don't believe we are privvy to all the information required to make a fully informed decision on the process.

 

Point is that I don't believe Jabiru have risked peoples lives to a point beyond which is acceptable to the people who fly in them.

I disagree, I think there has been one too many throughbolt failures and one too many valve problems to ignore along with recognised overheating issues. I have personally been the victim of a less than perfect battery failing to start a 3300 with a turnover speed that would easily start most other engines, I was quite surprised to later find out this was very common and been going on for years (something CAMit has addressed I see).

 

That RV that went in at Chelsea, yes I know not a Jab, is just a recent example that people on the ground need protecting as well, not to mention passengers and less than savvy flyers who can't make their own informed decisions.

 

I'm in awe that forum member 'Head in the Clouds' has managed 52 forced landings but is everyone as capable, and sometimes just fortunate, as that? No, they are not.

 

2) there are plenty of things that can bring you unstuck when you get in a plane.

Yes there are, so lets strive to remove mechanical failure from the list.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Where a manufacturer doesn't issue a Recall, the Department orders it and there are sanctions

Under this system the Jabiru issues would have been addressed several years ago, it would all be over with many owners not losing the money they lost, dozens of forced landings would not have occurred, and we would not be seeing the farce we are seeing today.

Indeed.

 

For every car recall you see in the public, there's about 10 that are rectified quietly and internally.

 

Next time any of you go to a car stealership to have your car serviced, ask the service manager if you can look through some of the service bulletin folders. You will be quite surprised at what goes on and quickly realise how self governing the car industry actually is and you will be thankful they are under a heavy hand.