CASA - Draft Proposal for Jabiru Aircraft

[jetjr]

Bex what did nissan do about the Nissan ZD30 engine

 

Id suggest 80% catastrophic failure before 1300 hrs

 

Only vehicles under warranty were repaired, not replaced, many went on to fail again. Difficult as warranty was only 1000 hrs

 

52 hard part internal changes were made to the engine to attempt to fix

 

After several years the fuel system was altered to CRD and problem went away. Seems it was a ECU problem all the time.

 

How do you think owners felt? With massive depreciation, problems, being towed home 3 or 4 times. Sure it damaged brand but not as much as you might expect, no one died.

 

Govt did stuff all. Recalls are issued by the manufacturer.

 

Market drives majority of recalls and the fact is they are driven by weighing up the cost and the risk of a claim.

 

Give yourself more credit Bx, engine design is more complicated than a cracked tow bar or underspec alloy wheel. What cost.... $200 in parts probably less.

 

Besides all this what do you expect Jabiru to do replace all 3000 plus engines, they will be broke AND still carrying liability. May as well close and be just oneof those

 

No one is dissagreeing something SHOULD be done but doesnt mean it will be. Posters seem to think others dont agree theres a problem. In fact they Need solutions more than anyone else. The current track wont see this happen

 

 

[dutchroll]

One of the greatest freedoms and conveniences the general public enjoy today is the ability to fly anywhere in the country, or the world, at a price even the average Joe or Josette can usually afford. Even if ATPL pilots are little more than systems analysts these days, airlines and the general public demand that they actually know how to fly a plane.

That freedom to fly anywhere at a price Joe Average can afford has come at a cost, though most of the public don't realise it and it's beyond the scope of this debate.

I also think the suggestion that ATPL pilots are perhaps little more than systems analysts is a view usually held by those who don't fly big jet RPT. But no offence taken!

 

 

[turboplanner]

Bex what did nissan do about the Nissan ZD30 engineId suggest 80% catastrophic failure before 1300 hrs

Only vehicles under warranty were repaired, not replaced, many went on to fail again. Difficult as warranty was only 1000 hrs

 

52 hard part internal changes were made to the engine to attempt to fix

 

After several years the fuel system was altered to CRD and problem went away. Seems it was a ECU problem all the time.

 

How do you think owners felt? With massive depreciation, problems, being towed home 3 or 4 times. Sure it damaged brand but not as much as you might expect, no one died.

 

Govt did stuff all. Recalls are issued by the manufacturer.

 

Market drives majority of recalls and the fact is they are driven by weighing up the cost and the risk of a claim.

 

Give yourself more credit Bx, engine design is more complicated than a cracked tow bar or underspec alloy wheel. What cost.... $200 in parts probably less.

 

Besides all this what do you expect Jabiru to do replace all 3000 plus engines, they will be broke AND still carrying liability. May as well close and be just oneof those

 

No one is dissagreeing something SHOULD be done but doesnt mean it will be. Posters seem to think others dont agree theres a problem. In fact they Need solutions more than anyone else. The current track wont see this happen

No point in writing nonsense. The subject I raised was about control of safety through safety recalls

 

 

Each of the issues I mentioned could have, if not addressed resulted in a catastrophic event.

 

Suggesting Jabiru might have to replace 3,000 engines when the stated fleet is only 1,000, or that the engines would have to be replaced rather than corrective kits fitted or that CASA's action will not lead to a fix is just bluster.

 

 

[dmech]

Accellerometer used for prop balancing should pick a tv spike upI have one and it can be set up to read results alll the time.

We use he same thing to measure wear rates in large electric motor bearings

yes 2 accelerometers and interface to dual trace cro , mine is a TECKTRONIX 488 DIDGITAL STORAGE, , however one from jaycar or alltronics / labscope or sim d trace, however I already know where these torsional movements and spacing's. are happening within the engine cycle and I think they are responsible for almost all of the problems associated with this engine incl.[ exept valves], fly wheel prop hub fasteners , comp. props ,c/case fretting , although we have seen some of this after mods were done but engine did have 80 hrs on it before mod , so time will tell on that one [ except valve 's] but they are also easily fixed , as are the vibration probs which we have already sorted, just need more data re thru bolts so that I can positively associate these failures to the above vibration issues, with info so far, it looks very much like it is . WITH all the bolt problems reported, there must be a lot more data out there . I need to know side and if upper or lower bolt incl studs, to get a definite pattern indication .

[email protected]

 

 

[docjell]

Frank I doubt I got your vote last time anyway....I'm not here to make friends...I'm here to get things done on your behalf for our organization......Fortunatly most aren't thinking the way you are, as the input I recieved from my last area newsletter ( the only board member sending one out by the way) shows. The majority of it very positive.In fact I just got off the phone with a local area Jab driver ( Rob Gray) who was more than happy to give me a call and chew the fat, rather than some who just whinge as usual on the sidelines.

No Marj- you didn't get a lot of votes locally because we all know you. We weren't voting for a friend, we were voting for an appropriate representative and ambassador for local,recreational flyers of which there are many up here. No one is whinging anywhere let alone on the sidelines- we just just hoped that our elected representative would behave in an appropriate manner befitting the position especially at flying functions.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

No Marj- you didn't get a lot of votes locally because we all know you.

Must have got a few, or my understanding of the voting process is wrong.. Its still most votes wins yea??

 

 

[reggie]

Was going to go for a fly myself Robinsm but read this post and got scared because I ve got a jab motor. Decided to go fishing but changed my mind cause the boat could sink. Maybe go beach fishing but might have got washed in by a king wave.

 

So bugger it stayed at home and got pissed, Now the missus wants to kill me. Should have gone for a fly!

 

 

[docjell]

Must have got a few, or my understanding of the voting process is wrong.. Its still most votes wins yea??

[nomadpete]

Regarding those who are comparing things with the automotive industry's record of fault rectification

 

My experience with Australian purchased vehicles is that it is true that the responsible service provider (after all, we don't have much manufacturing here) has been really responsive (with recalls, etc) when a safety issue has arisen in their vehicles. However, I have been repeatedly treated with contempt by numerous different brand vehicle companies when I have complained about mechanical problems. The most common treatment is that I am an isolated complainer, and nobody else is complaining about XXXX issue. Then I find that everyone else is hearing the same story about the problem.

 

So, it seems that the automotive industry is really only responsive when the risk of litigation exceeds the trouble required to fix the problem. Does this sound familiar with regard to our thread?

 

I have flown Jabiru aircraft. I would not hesitate to fly one any time. I have no affilliation with the company. However, I have seen enough evidence to convince me that serious action should be taken to get Jabiru to improve their engine. They still have the potential to be a world class product, if only they address the motor issue.

 

My only gripe about the CASA instrument is that it will only punish the owners, when it should be directed forcibly toward the only place that the problem/s can really be rectified - and that is the manufacturer. That is why many of us are trying to get political interferance to make CASA act constructively for a change.

 

PeterT

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Received a reply today from CASA in relation to my invited submission on the proposed draft document.

 

In part below.

 

Sounds like they are on the front foot. IMHO

 

CASA has been looking at data and reports about Jabiru piston-engine failures for some time. In the course of that review, problems related to Jabiru engines that have stood out range from full and partial power loss and in-flight engine shutdowns, to rough running and oil leaks. CASA has identified more than 40 Jabiru engine problems and events that have occurred in 2014 alone.

 

Mechanical problems that have been identified by Jabiru include through bolt, valve and cylinder, and fly-wheel bolt failures. The contribution of particular kinds of operations (for example, student training) and maintenance-related factors to some of these failures has yet to be determined.

 

Jabiru, as the manufacturer of these engines, has certain obligations under the relevant International Standards, and civil aviation safety legislation in terms of the identification and rectification of such engine problems irrespective of when they occurred or what may have caused them, and CASA is working with Jabiru to arrive at a solution.

 

Phil.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Jabiru will resolve these issues eventually, its just going to need a bit of a whack over the nose by CASA.

 

 

[jetboy]

Received a reply today from CASA in relation to my invited submission on the proposed draft document.In part below.

Sounds like they are on the front foot. IMHO

 

CASA has been looking at data and reports about Jabiru piston-engine failures for some time. In the course of that review, problems related to Jabiru engines that have stood out range from full and partial power loss and in-flight engine shutdowns, to rough running and oil leaks. CASA has identified more than 40 Jabiru engine problems and events that have occurred in 2014 alone.

 

Mechanical problems that have been identified by Jabiru include through bolt, valve and cylinder, and fly-wheel bolt failures. The contribution of particular kinds of operations (for example, student training) and maintenance-related factors to some of these failures has yet to be determined.

 

Jabiru, as the manufacturer of these engines, has certain obligations under the relevant International Standards, and civil aviation safety legislation in terms of the identification and rectification of such engine problems irrespective of when they occurred or what may have caused them, and CASA is working with Jabiru to arrive at a solution.

 

Phil.

I said this on another thread, but the question is relevant here:

"There is a lot of information not available to the operators. its only taken a couple of weeks for Jabiru to check and give engineering analysis on the RA cracked heads issue, so the info is there but not shared unless it suits the situation.

 

When the SB for throughbolts appeared, they also published AVDAL SR050 and later AVDAL SR071

 

Where are the other 70 AVDAL SRs, and the "advisory engine bulletins" - I have seen #17 and #18 (dec. 2010) - but what about the other 16?

 

The missing bulletins might be all trivial but what is in them?"

 

-and have CASA been looking at those too?

 

Ralph

 

 

[turboplanner]

My experience with Australian purchased vehicles is that it is true that the responsible service provider (after all, we don't have much manufacturing here) has been really responsive (with recalls, etc) when a safety issue has arisen in their vehicles.

The title of this thread is : CASA - "Draft Proposal for Jabiru Aircraft" and the Draft Proposal is a set of proposed safety measures designed to address safety issues.

 

That relates to the potential for death or serious injury. Customer satisfaction or excess cost of operation is another matter entirely, and while in some cases people may have lost or have the potential to lose a lot of money, that is not relevent to this document and not part of CASA's responsibility. There are Tribunals in the States and Territories which can hear complaints and quickly adjudicate on them. So far I haven't seen any evidence of a Tribunal case being held.

 

Safety issues are the ones relevant to this thread.

 

Although we don't have much manufacturing here, the Distribution of vehicles is an industry which is probably bigger than the manufacturing industries of the 1960's , but today it's not unusual to have en engineer test driving a vehicle in northern NSW with the onroad data streaming directly to another engineer in Japan, Italy etc, and the two of them talking on the phone.

 

I have been repeatedly treated with contempt by numerous different brand vehicle companies when I have complained about mechanical problems. The most common treatment is that I am an isolated complainer, and nobody else is complaining about XXXX issue. Then I find that everyone else is hearing the same story about the problem.

This can sometimes happen in a local town, and even with some distributors, but usually if the Company hears about it, there will be a face to face meeting involving the Dealer Principal and he will get a Performance Letter which is one step on the road to excommunication if the matter is serious. Next time it happens, ring the Company and ask for the Dealer Service Manager, who interfaces with all the Dealer Service Departments.

 

I have flown Jabiru aircraft. I would not hesitate to fly one any time. I have no affilliation with the company. However, I have seen enough evidence to convince me that serious action should be taken to get Jabiru to improve their engine. They still have the potential to be a world class product, if only they address the motor issue.

Agree

 

My only gripe about the CASA instrument is that it will only punish the owners, when it should be directed forcibly toward the only place that the problem/s can really be rectified - and that is the manufacturer. That is why many of us are trying to get political interferance to make CASA act constructively for a change.

This is Compliance and Enforcement which is what CASA is supposed to be doing.

RAA requested the action, but it appears don't like the proposed method of minimising the exposure of passengers and low-skilled pilots.

 

CASA has invited comments, which people should be aware is the process of natural justice.

 

Those comments should be factual and compelling to carry any weight in the final decision which is yet to be made. Political interference goes on with almost every decision made by Government, but carries no weight at all in a safety matter.

 

As far as making CASA act "constructively for a change", the vast majority of people involved in the aviation industry - the thousands who stay out of trouble - are not saying this.

 

 

[viewfromright]

Thank you for your email responding to the invitation for comments on operational limitations being proposed by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) for aircraft fitted with Jabiru engines.

 

The proposed measures are precautionary and intended to reduce the potential risk of harm or injury resulting from possible Jabiru engine occurrences, until the causes of these occurrences have been identified and addressed. CASA has circulated the consultation draft to provide operators and other interested persons with notice of the actions CASA is proposing to take, noting that no action has been taken yet, as well as an opportunity to comment on those proposals, and offer any suggested alternatives.

 

CASA has been looking at data and reports about Jabiru piston-engine failures for some time. In the course of that review, problems related to Jabiru engines that have stood out range from full and partial power loss and in-flight engine shutdowns, to rough running and oil leaks. CASA has identified more than 40 Jabiru engine problems and events that have occurred in 2014 alone.

 

Mechanical problems that have been identified by Jabiru include through bolt, valve and cylinder, and fly-wheel bolt failures. The contribution of particular kinds of operations (for example, student training) and maintenance-related factors to some of these failures has yet to be determined.

 

Jabiru, as the manufacturer of these engines, has certain obligations under the relevant International Standards, and civil aviation safety legislation in terms of the identification and rectification of such engine problems irrespective of when they occurred or what may have caused them, and CASA is working with Jabiru to arrive at a solution.

 

CASA will consider all comments received on the consultation draft and the discussions held with Jabiru (which are ongoing) before making a final decision on any operating limitations that may need to be imposed, as a precautionary measure in the interests of safety.

 

In the expectation we will receive constructive and informative input, CASA has extended the consultation period by an additional 7 days to 27 November 2014. At the conclusion of that period, CASA will assess the information we have received, in conjunction with other information available to us, and act in accordance with our obligations under the Civil Aviation Act.

 

Your input will be considered in the process of determining the nature and scope of such operating limitations as CASA may ultimately decide need to be imposed in the interests of safety.

 

CASA fully appreciates that the imposition of any operational limitations will affect Jabiru and the many owners and operators of aircraft fitted with Jabiru engines. As an Australian-manufactured engine, CASA has special obligations in relation to Jabiru. CASA’s intention is to help ensure that safety-related problems associated with Jabiru engines—mechanical, operational or maintenance-related—are identified and addressed as quickly and effectively as possible.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Steve Neal

 

Office of the Director of Aviation Safety.........................

 

 

[nomadpete]

Turbs,

 

I guess you might call an Australian Capital city a "local town" but I expected better integrity from some of the larger dealerships in these "little" capital cities. Although I am referring to automotive engine and transmission problems the comparison was all about achieving motivation to imrove a product. I still say that the basic principle of risk management leaves consumers on the back foot until the risk of litigation loss exceeds the cost of fixing a problem. Until then, manufacturers and their agents frequently continue to snow their clients.

 

Further, I am happy to see that you feel that CASA don't need to become more constructive in their actions. Seems though that the Forsyth report doesn't agree with you on that.

 

Hopefully things are improving on that front.

 

Peter T

 

 

[turboplanner]

Turbs, I guess you might call an Australian Capital city a "local town" but I expected better integrity from some of the larger dealerships in these "little" capital cities.

I just used the words local town loosely. Poor customer attitude can occur in the largest dealers, the Distributor, and the MD himself, as one found out recently after he was kicked out of his chair before he even got it warm. Customer satisfaction is viewed as VERY important by both Client and Supplier who wants continuing business.

 

I still say that the basic principle of risk management leaves consumers on the back foot until the risk of litigation loss exceeds the cost of fixing a problem. Until then, manufacturers and their agents frequently continue to snow their clients.

Not in the automotive industry the Recall programme kicks off immediately a safety issue is found, and cost of fixing is not a consideration, as you can see from some reports of hundreds of thousands of cars recalled from around the world.

 

The question is what has RAA put in place to kick off safety issues in RA, and ensure the Safety Authority Acts to prevent injury/death?

 

Further, I am happy to see that you feel that CASA don't need to become more constructive in their actions. Seems though that the Forsyth report doesn't agree with you on that.

The Forsyth Report has been dragged into this by RAA (the organization who asked CASA to act). Whether it is relevant to this case or not is yet to be seen, since, in response to RAA's request, CASA has provided a DRAFT document, and asked for comments.

The time to judge whether anything in the Forsyth Report, and in fact if it carries any weight, would be when CASA makes a decision.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Maybe Turbo with your 20 years of sales experience from selling new trucks you could talk to Rod Stiff about how best to deal with his customers and the defect cycle whilst juggling obligations with the regulator?

You can dig into my personal background as much as you like, and come up with more errors; I notice this was done during working hours.

 

The current issue, the Draft Proposal is between CASA and Jabiru, and involves safety, not customer satisfaction, and Rod Stiff doesn't need me to tell him how to run his business.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I thought it was valid, you are talking about customer satisfaction, distribution, MD's, clients and suppliers, it is entirely relevant. You are making a lot of suggestions on how things normally work in this kind of business, so it only seems logical that you would want to share your experience in a way in which it will actually matter versus simply discussing it here.

It's a bit too late for that I'm afraid. I don't like predators.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Turboplanner said:In response to this from the following website:

http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/lawsuit/general-motors-recall.html

 

Seems that this is not always the case and I can't see that using automotive manufacturers as a benchmark makes sense.

We were talking about Australia

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I just used the words local town loosely. Poor customer attitude can occur in the largest dealers, the Distributor, and the MD himself, as one found out recently after he was kicked out of his chair before he even got it warm. Customer satisfaction is viewed as VERY important by both Client and Supplier who wants continuing business.

 

Not in the automotive industry the Recall programme kicks off immediately a safety issue is found, and cost of fixing is not a consideration, as you can see from some reports of hundreds of thousands of cars recalled from around the world.

 

The question is what has RAA put in place to kick off safety issues in RA, and ensure the Safety Authority Acts to prevent injury/death?

 

The Forsyth Report has been dragged into this by RAA (the organization who asked CASA to act). Whether it is relevant to this case or not is yet to be seen, since, in response to RAA's request, CASA has provided a DRAFT document, and asked for comments.

 

The time to judge whether anything in the Forsyth Report, and in fact if it carries any weight, would be when CASA makes a decision.

Lets be clear here , the RAA did not 'ask CASA' to act. CASA requested certain incident reports from the RAA which we copoerated in supplying......then CASA acted. It was just as much a surprise to the RAA as anyone...

 

 

[motzartmerv]

- In the UK, a pregnant woman can legally relieve herself anywhere she wants – even, if she so requests, in a policeman’s helmet.

 

- In France, it is forbidden to call a pig Napoleon.

 

- In Kentucky, it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon more than six-feet long.

 

Sorry, just thought I would chuck in some laws that arent relevant to Aussies...

 

 

[jetjr]

TP plenty here would rate you as champion of nonsense considering you aren't even a member or at all involved yet keep making your opinions known as if they are valued.

 

There are over 1000 aircraft here in RAA, more than 3000 engines in service.

 

Others have indicated that it is not a simple kit upgrade, if it were it would have been done.

 

Your not getting it, it could easily be engine replacements (or the same cost) to fix the issue Jabiru wont be paying, customers will, even if its a patch up to calm CASA down.

 

an add on patch up is ALL this action will come up with and problems will continue

 

If you think cost isnt a consideration for a safety recall you have little business experience. Usually a product insurer is involved and they perform detailed risk assessment before approving a claim. Yes a possible safety problem has a very high cost but it isnt openended

 

Has CASA done a risk assessment on this problem, oh .....thats right theres no conclusive data upon which to make it. Need to get this sorted forst so they can even measure how serious it is or at least isolate it to an engine type/serial number range

 

With our Nissan problems we were talking to Nissan Australia head office and got told nicely it wasnt to be fixed, they would provide some parts, we would pay for labour BS, BS, BS. Pressure from ACCC saw some get help but limited. Similar stories elsewhere

 

How about the issue on Patrols where one rear wheel is known to come off, big safety issue you bet, solution, supply a set of indicators to go on wheel nuts and a sticker saying they have to be checked before each trip. Thats your govt safety recall system at work. Dodgy patch up for lowest cost. Wheels still coming off, rare but deadly also to other road users. They weighed the risk, acted accordingly.

 

 

[jetjr]

I believe its still legal to urinate on your left rear wheel anywhere, left over from carriage days when 4 ft wheels hid a little more

 

Until more recently every hotel keeper had to provide feed and water for a lodgers horse, try that at the Hilton, someone did.

 

 

[poteroo]

Lets be clear here , the RAA did not 'ask CASA' to act. CASA requested certain incident reports from the RAA which we copoerated in supplying......then CASA acted. It was just as much a surprise to the RAA as anyone...

Correct. I was at Dubbo, and there was no mention of this 'Jabiru engine' action by any of the 3 CASA people to whom I spoke on the Thursday morning, and I definitely did not pick up on any scuttlebutt to that effect from any of the other CFI's present. They had clearly been deliberating on the matter for some time though, and it seems that safety was paramount in their thinking. The timing was probably deliberate so as to avoid a scene at the conference. happy days,

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Has CASA done a risk assessment on this problem, oh .....that's right there's no conclusive data upon which to make it.

Physical evidence trumps data I would have thought, certainly does in a court of law.