CASA - Draft Proposal for Jabiru Aircraft

[Old Koreelah]

...I already know where these torsional movements and spacing's. are happening within the engine cycle and I think they are responsible for almost all of the problems associated with this engine incl.[ exept valves], fly wheel prop hub fasteners , comp. props ,c/case fretting ...

This has my interest; I fitted a big, heavy spinner to the front of my Jab2.2 partly because I felt the increased flywheel effect would reduced stress on the crank. More knowledgeable people have since told me this might make thing worse. I'm just a bit out of my depth here and would appreciate some expert opinion.

 

 

[Flyingfish]

Lets be clear here , the RAA did not 'ask CASA' to act. CASA requested certain incident reports from the RAA which we copoerated in supplying......then CASA acted. It was just as much a surprise to the RAA as anyone...

Which incident reports? The same ones that are on the RAA website? Only those?

 

 

[gandalph]

It's a bit too late for that I'm afraid. I don't like predators.

Nobody does Turbs, nobody does.

Though I'd be careful about accusing fellow a forumite of being a predator. Kinda goes against the "be nice to everyone here - or else" and the Mods are already flat out.

 

 

[gandalph]

Physical evidence trumps data I would have thought, certainly does in a court of law.

Really!? That's not been my experience as an officer of the Court for the last 15 years or so.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Others have indicated that it is not a simple kit upgrade, if it were it would have been done. Your not getting it, it could easily be engine replacements (or the same cost) to fix the issue.

There are plenty of opinions, no one knows the answer, or how it will be handled, so it's not responsible just to paint the worst case scenrio for effect.

 

If you think cost isnt a consideration for a safety recall you have little business experience. Usually a product insurer is involved and they perform detailed risk assessment before approving a claim.

Cost isn't a consideration for a recall which is not triggered by a claim. That's very different to a Warranty issue which is triggered by a claim, but is not what the subject heading is referring to.

 

With our Nissan problems we were talking to Nissan Australia head office and got told nicely it wasnt to be fixed, they would provide some parts, we would pay for labour BS, BS, BS. Pressure from ACCC saw some get help but limited. Similar stories elsewhere

That would relate to a warranty issue, not a safety recall, this thread is about a safety action.

 

How about the issue on Patrols where one rear wheel is known to come off, big safety issue you bet, solution, supply a set of indicators to go on wheel nuts and a sticker saying they have to be checked before each trip. Thats your govt safety recall system at work. Dodgy patch up for lowest cost. Wheels still coming off, rare but deadly also to other road users. They weighed the risk, acted accordingly.

I looked at the Google stuff you are referring to - no mention of a recall. Still a safety issue but in this one the onus is on the operator. Not enough detail in your post , but stud fracture, wheel cracking happens fast if design loads are exceeded.

 

Wagon? Cab/Chassis? Retro/modified cab/chassis? Boat Rack? Load? Tow Bar? Trailer load on Towbar? Trailer VSB1 compliant, operation highway? Dirt Road? Off Road? cruise speed off road? Easy to chew studs of towards the upper end of that lot. Had a guy admit to me once his Patrol with long range tanks, winch fitout, load weighed around 5 tonnes.

 

 

[robinsm]

Surely the topic has been done to death by now, I mean how many times can you rehash a topic without conctrete information or action from either casa or Jabiru. Would it not be better to get the results of the next meeting and the recommendations, actions etc before having a heart attack over the issue. No I don't fly a Jab engine but, yes I know lots who do. Some have had problems, some haven't and some are L2's fixing the problems. Circular arguments over guesses and supposition do not help anyone, and make the situation worse. If I owned a Jab, I would want to know what concrete actions were being taken, not listening to people spreading doom and gloom on guesses. People are concerned enough about this already, lets not depress the crap out of them. CASA and Jabiru will communicate the decisions, actions soon enough. The draft proposal is just that, a draft. The concerned parties have agreed on a time frame to respond so lets wait for that. Meanwhile go flying and enjoy this wonderful sport.

 

 

[docjell]

Thanks Deb- fascinating thought it may be to know who can or cannot urinate where , or meaningless comparisons to the automotive industry are of absolutely no help to this thread .

 

I posted a while ago- and got no sensible responses at all- to the effect that the raw figures promulgated so far comparing Jab with Rotax failures are just that- raw data. They are not 'statistics' as been suggested. The "0.03%" failure rate figure being thrown around is a data figure not,a statistically relevant analytical figure.

 

CASA are indeed frightening in that they seem to have the ability to propose unilateral impositions on almost anyone at will, with potentially devastating results , and yet have no accountability . I own a Cessna Cardinal, purchased with the specific intention of getting my instrument rating and staring to fly missions for Angel Flight.

 

CASA have decided that my aircraft age demands a SIDS inspection ($25.000 plus) which I do not have. Without the SIDS my plane is only worth scrap aluminium and like a Jabiru owner I now own a worthless aircraft, despite not one single incident that suggested the age of the A/C was a problem .

 

Angel Flight are now under the pump- despite over 16,000 'missions' without one single incident CASA are attacking Angel Flight for no obvious reason except they can - what is happening to us? Why have we allowed this to occur?

 

Lee Ungermann was a dyed in the wool Rec Aviation pilot from round here. He taught my neighbour to fly, and many others in the localty.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Lets be clear here , the RAA did not 'ask CASA' to act. CASA requested certain incident reports from the RAA which we copoerated in supplying......then CASA acted. It was just as much a surprise to the RAA as anyone...

So the press release from the CEO is a lie. Is that what you are alleging ?

 

 

[Roscoe]

Surely the topic has been done to death by now, I mean how many times can you rehash a topic without conctrete information or action from either casa or Jabiru. Would it not be better to get the results of the next meeting and the recommendations, actions etc before having a heart attack over the issue. No I don't fly a Jab engine but, yes I know lots who do. Some have had problems, some haven't and some are L2's fixing the problems. Circular arguments over guesses and supposition do not help anyone, and make the situation worse. If I owned a Jab, I would want to know what concrete actions were being taken, not listening to people spreading doom and gloom on guesses. People are concerned enough about this already, lets not depress the crap out of them. CASA and Jabiru will communicate the decisions, actions soon enough. The draft proposal is just that, a draft. The concerned parties have agreed on a time frame to respond so lets wait for that. Meanwhile go flying and enjoy this wonderful sport.

Well said mate!........my thoughts exactly.

 

 

[Roscoe]

Well said mate!........my thoughts exactly.

And i bought my new J170d in March this year also.

 

 

[docjell]

So the press release from the CEO is a lie. Is that what you are alleging ?

Frank- you and I know him well- I would suspect he doesn't actually know what he is talking about ( situation normal )

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

So the press release from the CEO is a lie. Is that what you are alleging ?

Which press release are you referring to.....??...

 

 

[frank marriott]

Which press release are you referring to.....??...

If you haven't read it, I rest my case.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Which incident reports? The same ones that are on the RAA website? Only those?

Was thinking the same thing ff.

 

Perhaps Jab bashers in the closet?

 

Hope the door opens and we can then try and explain the potential damage they have done to our organisation, or maybe they will stay hidden.

 

We can always supply a pillow and blanket and some gruel until they come clean.

 

No doubt it will surface eventually.

 

I have my suspicions but enjoy some posts on this forum so will keep this to myself as mod is watching.

 

Phil

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

If you haven't read it, I rest my case.

Frank I am receiving Emails and press releases at board level daily, Especially ATM, I have read them all.....which one specifically are you referring to ...??

As an example I have just recieved and read a letter sent today to the Hon Warren Truss MP in respect to the Jab affair, from board Pres Michael Monck.

 

 

[coljones]

Frank I am receiving Emails and press releases at board level daily, Especially ATM, I have read them all.....which one specifically are you referring to ...??As an example I have just recieved and read a letter sent today to the Hon Warren Truss MP in respect to the Jab affair, from board Pres Michael Monck.

The latest I have seen is from Monck to Ungerman RAAUS 126-14 dated 21Nov14 at https://www.raa.asn.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/RA-Aus-Submission-to-CASA-re-Jabiru-Proposal-dated-21-Nov-2014.pdf

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

There was another sent to members on the 21st "Jabiru update"

 

Phil

 

 

[dmech]

This has my interest; I fitted a big, heavy spinner to the front of my Jab2.2 partly because I felt the increased flywheel effect would reduced stress on the crank. More knowledgeable people have since told me this might make thing worse. I'm just a bit out of my depth here and would appreciate some expert opinion.

yes it will make problem more pronounced , increased flywheel effect ,ie your spinner will put prop hub bolts under increased stress as it is trying to smooth out irregular motion that is created within the motor, will also impact more on thru bolts, a harmonic damper of any kind mounted on crank won't help either , prop should be as light as possible, at least until problem is sorted

A.D.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Back to topic please,I suspect he is the sacrificial lamb who was unlucky enough to draw the short straw and get his name on the paperwork.

Oh, we have to stop analogies that actually have genuine relationship of real world examples of company's conduct with faulty components, but you can just post any old gossip you wish ....

 

 

[dutchroll]

CASA are indeed frightening in that they seem to have the ability to propose unilateral impositions on almost anyone at will, with potentially devastating results , and yet have no accountability . I own a Cessna Cardinal, purchased with the specific intention of getting my instrument rating and staring to fly missions for Angel Flight.CASA have decided that my aircraft age demands a SIDS inspection ($25.000 plus) which I do not have. Without the SIDS my plane is only worth scrap aluminium and like a Jabiru owner I now own a worthless aircraft, despite not one single incident that suggested the age of the A/C was a problem .

CASA are the Civil Aviation Safety Authority.

It seems to me during these debates and discussions that some people don't realise that they do not exist to assist you in being able to run a business, or run a charity, or manufacture aircraft components, or anything at all. They exist to draft, develop and enforce the regulatory framework for civil aviation in this country. CASA are simply a "hoop" (or several, or many, depending on the circumstances) that you must jump through.

 

Like every other Government department, they are directly accountable to the Government for aviation safety matters and if they perceive (rightly or wrongly) that there is a looming safety issue then the Government dictates that they take action.

 

I'm not pretending that they're perfect - my opinion is that they are a long way from that in almost all respects. However people need to get out of the mindset that CASA are there to help them.

 

SIDs affects thousands of aircraft and it's pretty non discriminatory, applying to Cessnas manufactured over a 40 year time frame (which is a lot). The SIDs requirements were developed by the manufacturer. The CASA action simply makes it enforceable.

 

He seems now to be the main link point to CASA in this conflict- I would suggest that there are historical conflicts of interest that should be addresssed urgently as I am not convinced that this 'anti Jab' campaign is without predudice .

We wouldn't be having this debate if Jabiru engines didn't appear to have reliability issues compared to other mainstream aero engines, so I hardly think it qualifies as "anti-Jab".

 

 

[jetjr]

I doubt you could find anyone involved in aviation thinks CASA is there to help them. This is a hard earned reputation, criticised in Forsyth report which they have chosen to ignore.

 

Yes safety is their brief and where safety outcomes are assured few will challenge that.

 

SIDS is very different as you have said, aircraft are well past design life and manufacturer has outlined extra maintenance to continue operation.

 

How would Cessna owners feel if it applied to ALL Cessna aircraft irrespective of age, type, catagory, model and you had 2 weeks to comply to continue usage, even one bought last week?

 

Most discussions here are that their current approach with Jabiru engines will NOT result in a safety outcome but is damaging owners and businesses.

 

It is also based on anecdotal and non detailed evidence and applied to a make of engine, not a model, version, age or capacity.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I totally disagree with Dutchroll. CASA are NOT interested in my safety. By far the most dangerous thing I do is being forced to fly lower than safe to in order to leave unused airspace above me.

 

For years, we were forced to fly below 5000ft, even when going to Tasmania, and it took Eugene Reid and the RAAus years of work to drag CASA and Airservices or whoever into permitting us to fly there with safety.

 

Yes I know some of the culpability belongs to Airservices, but CASA should be on our side when a safety issue is at stake.

 

Until I see this I will continue to know that CASA is hostile to my safety, no matter what false words are in their title.

 

 

[kgwilson]

Thank you for your email responding to the invitation for comments on operational limitations being proposed by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) for aircraft fitted with Jabiru engines.

The proposed measures are precautionary and intended to reduce the potential risk of harm or injury resulting from possible Jabiru engine occurrences, until the causes of these occurrences have been identified and addressed. CASA has circulated the consultation draft to provide operators and other interested persons with notice of the actions CASA is proposing to take, noting that no action has been taken yet, as well as an opportunity to comment on those proposals, and offer any suggested alternatives.

 

CASA has been looking at data and reports about Jabiru piston-engine failures for some time. In the course of that review, problems related to Jabiru engines that have stood out range from full and partial power loss and in-flight engine shutdowns, to rough running and oil leaks. CASA has identified more than 40 Jabiru engine problems and events that have occurred in 2014 alone.

 

Mechanical problems that have been identified by Jabiru include through bolt, valve and cylinder, and fly-wheel bolt failures. The contribution of particular kinds of operations (for example, student training) and maintenance-related factors to some of these failures has yet to be determined.

 

Jabiru, as the manufacturer of these engines, has certain obligations under the relevant International Standards, and civil aviation safety legislation in terms of the identification and rectification of such engine problems irrespective of when they occurred or what may have caused them, and CASA is working with Jabiru to arrive at a solution.

 

CASA will consider all comments received on the consultation draft and the discussions held with Jabiru (which are ongoing) before making a final decision on any operating limitations that may need to be imposed, as a precautionary measure in the interests of safety.

 

In the expectation we will receive constructive and informative input, CASA has extended the consultation period by an additional 7 days to 27 November 2014. At the conclusion of that period, CASA will assess the information we have received, in conjunction with other information available to us, and act in accordance with our obligations under the Civil Aviation Act.

 

Your input will be considered in the process of determining the nature and scope of such operating limitations as CASA may ultimately decide need to be imposed in the interests of safety.

 

CASA fully appreciates that the imposition of any operational limitations will affect Jabiru and the many owners and operators of aircraft fitted with Jabiru engines. As an Australian-manufactured engine, CASA has special obligations in relation to Jabiru. CASA’s intention is to help ensure that safety-related problems associated with Jabiru engines—mechanical, operational or maintenance-related—are identified and addressed as quickly and effectively as possible.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Steve Neal

 

Office of the Director of Aviation Safety.........................

This appears to be the standard response email sent to all who made comments via email to Lee Ungermann. At the top of the Email it has UNOFFICIAL in upper case and the subject is "Jabiru [sEC=UNOFFICIAL]". Presumably this is CASA arse covering. It is a reasonable interim statement IMHO but it is interesting that it is signed not by Lee Ungermann who was the individual to whom comments were required to be directed to, but has been escalated up to the Office of the Director & signed by Steve Neal who I presume is a PA of the acting director Terry Farquharson.

 

 

[facthunter]

THEY see their function in the terms of the Acts of Parliament they operate under, and that is where the real problem lies for us.. Nev

 

 

[robinsm]

we're the guvmint...we're here to help you.....said no one ever...