CASA - Draft Proposal for Jabiru Aircraft

[DonRamsay]

Don hypothetically, if the Jab engine was replaced by a Rotex as you describe above, my Aircraft could still be operated in the 24 Category and problem solved if the proposal came into being??

The J170D is airworthiness certified LSA so the answer is NO, you can only put a Rotax in it with the permission of Jabiru - wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that approval. It gets tricky after that because for it to be 19 registered, don't you have to have built 51%? Pretty hard to claim for a factory built.

Recently we needed to replace the prop on our LSA. We didn't want to put the Tonini back on and sought permission from Tecnam to fit a Bolly. We got the permission within 24 hours! This is a common change and both Tecnam and Rotax were very happy for the change.

 

 

[jetjr]

maybe the scale and impact has dawned on RAA

 

Some there have believed it was RAA job to achieve this......well done

 

No Don, theres 25 reg too which is modified LSA, not for training

 

Why not forget Jabiru and spend efforts supporting non manufacturer improvements AND a process to allow LSA to adapt them

 

 

[glenns]

Could someone please advise how .03% stacks up against other manufacturers? Is this an acceptable level or is it high?

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

I wonder if people realise this won't just spell the end of Jabiru it has the potential to bring down RAAus. If there are not enough flight schools and training aircraft what do you think will happen to the membership? If there is a sudden decline in membership what do we think will happen to the financial viability of RAAus?

Yes; if Jabiru simply walks away, how do you people imagine that will affect the membership of RAA? Who would trust that management team after this? I'd predict a mass-movement to the RPL and VH experimental.

 

 

[01rmb]

Looks to me like RA-Aus is trying to play both sides of the field - stir up the hornets nest and then try to side with the injured parties. See above and then read the quote from Michael Linke who had safety concerns "We've written to (Civil Aviation Safety Authority) about this particular type of aircraft, so we've advised them that (crashes) have happened once too often". Oh and by the way - the quote referenced an aircraft that was later found to have ran out of fuel not engine failure...

 

I think I will be investigating VH registration - can't trust this mob.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

I wonder if people realise this won't just spell the end of Jabiru it has the potential to bring down RAAus. If there are not enough flight schools and training aircraft what do you think will happen to the membership? If there is a sudden decline in membership what do we think will happen to the financial viability of RAAus?

And if a bankrupt Jabiru did bring down RA-Aus then CASA would have some interesting options. They could start funding RA-Aus for the fair value of work RA-Aus does for CASA or they could allow RA-Aus to fold and require RA-Aus pilots to convert to an RPL. That would be well received by many in GA both flying schools and LAMEs.

It would put some pressure on CASA to come up with a more realistic Drivers Licence Medical as many in RA-Aus, especially former defectors from GA would not be able to pass the current CASA DL Medical.

 

 

[coljones]

SPECIAL NEWS ALERT

 

Aircraft fitted with Jabiru Engines

 

 

 

Snip Snip Snip

 

Of more than 90,000 Jabiru movements recorded by RA-Aus in the year to date approximately 0.03% have resulted in some form of engine malfunction with no fatalities being attributable to these events.

 

Snip snip snip

Whacko!! Some worthwhile stats out of RAA, finally - not based on hours admittedly, but movements - but much more sensible than stats based on engine counts or just raw data. (is a movement 5 minutes or 5 hours?)

 

Will RAA produce similar stats about all other engine types in the fleet eg subies, mercs, conties, rotax, lycoming, gypsy major etc

 

Would anyone like to pony up some stats based on mulfunctions by hours flow by the entire fleet.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

. . . No Don, theres 25 reg too which is modified LSA, not for training

I am aware of it but don't understand how it fits with the CAOs.

 

Why not forget Jabiru and spend efforts supporting non manufacturer improvements AND a process to allow LSA to adapt them

Not a bad idea. The no changes unless approved by the factory is not a sensible rule. It gives too much monopoly power to the LSA manufacturer to only use their replacement parts. It also does not allow for genuine improvements. A competent Aviation Engineer should be able to approve these changes as they can for the type certified aircraft.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

The RAA wrote to CASA about the engine failures. And now, a few months later are seeking suport form members to stop CASA in its un announced push to solve the issues??

 

Just because my ass is dumb, dont mean im a dumbass.. There is sooo much more happening here than meets the eye. And its been happening for months.

 

 

[Roscoe]

Looks to me like RA-Aus is trying to play both sides of the field - stir up the hornets nest and then try to side with the injured parties. See above and then read the quote from Michael Linke who had safety concerns "We've written to (Civil Aviation Safety Authority) about this particular type of aircraft, so we've advised them that (crashes) have happened once too often". Oh and by the way - the quote referenced an aircraft that was later found to have ran out of fuel not engine failure...I think I will be investigating VH registration - can't trust this mob.

But doesnt the Proposal affect ALL Jab engined Aircraft, not just RAA registrations?

 

 

[DonRamsay]

Whacko!! Some worthwhile stats out of RAA, finally - not based on hours admittedly, but movements - but much more sensible than stats based on engine counts or just raw data. (is a movement 5 minutes or 5 hours?)Will RAA produce similar stats about all other engine types in the fleet eg subies, mercs, conties, rotax, lycoming, gypsy major etc

 

Would anyone like to pony up some stats based on mulfunctions by hours flow by the entire fleet.

Col, I don't know for sure what they mean by movements but I'm guessing they are working off landings reported for Rego renewals.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

The RAA wrote to CASA about the engine failures. And now, a few months later are seeking suport form members to stop CASA in its un announced push to solve the issues?? . . .

RA-Aus might be happy that CASA is taking action but perhaps they are concerned that it is taking too much action? Not quite the same as playing both sides of the street.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

The people in this country have given Mr Stiff the business he has today because they believed the publicity and bought his products.

My point is NOT that there are not problems or that Jabiru has acted sensibly; my point is that what has been triggered by RAAus plus the agitators, is very likely to backfire on the membership. RAA is NOT in a position to fix the problem by waving a big stick; more likely it's shot both its feet off. Time will tell.

 

 

[DGL Fox]

The prices owners were getting for the sale of their Jabs were low before, what's this going to do for the resale values? I guess only one way..

 

David

 

 

[Happyflyer]

The RAAus email states that 0.03 percent of 90000 Jabiru movements had "some sort of engine malfunction" in the year to date. If my math is correct that's 27 engine malfunctions of any sort in one year for the whole Jabiru fleet. One would assume this covers things like fuel problems, spark plug problems, improper maintenance issues as well as out and out engine failures caused by through bolts or valves failing and the like.

 

I would think that sounds like quite a reliable engine. In fact the figures are so good they are hard to believe. So good that Jabiru could probably take CASA to the cleaners for the damage to their reputation.

 

I wonder what figures CASA have got to justify their action. I find it hard to believe they are using RAAus figures. Lets hope RAAus have done better with their statistics than they did with the registration debacle.

 

 

[01rmb]

But doesnt the Proposal affect ALL Jab engined Aircraft, not just RAA registrations?

Yes it does affect all jab engined aircraft - this problem is not going to be solved in the short term by moving to VH registration.

I just can't in good conscience give money to the entity that has played the members by being the bad guy getting CASA to take action and then tried to pass themselves off to the members as trying to save the day. If they were doing the right thing they would have worked to have solved this problem without going to the press, without running off to the regulator to take action and without punishing the members who have large investments in aircraft or business relying on the operation of these aircraft. Don't see why I should pay $340 per year to someone that plays me for a fool. This is $80,000 of my and $100's of millions of other people money and their livelihoods they are playing with and they didn't think this could happen?

 

Maybe there will eventually be a winner out of this, but, I am not confident it will be anytime soon, if at all. Much better to have worked to fix the problems and worked to allow the fixes to be applied to the particular registration of aircraft. Even if CAMit had the perfect solution I couldn't utilise it without a change to the regulations. Even if Jabiru had wanted to apply the fixes - at what cost the testing and regulatory approvals? RA-Aus would have been better off working with everyone - owners, schools, pilots, manufacturers (original and aftermarket) and the regulator to allow the improvements to be applied to reach a better outcome for everyone.

 

 

[Bigglesworth]

I own 2 Jabiru powered planes. 1 of them has given a lot of engine trouble. Jabiru has treated me with no help or responsibility for their barely passable product. So, no sympathy to Jabiru.

 

BUT while they have caused a lot of grief (and money) to Jab owners, I don't believe they pose a significantly higher danger to pilots than other items that can possibly fail. Especially on homebuilds.

 

I'm hoping the draft proposal is simply a big stick to wallop the Jabiru factory until they decide to help the customer. Approving Camit and Rotec parts would be a start.

 

But mainly I'm wondering how it is reasonable for my Bantam with a 2200 and a BRS is now deemed to be less safe than a Bantam with a Rotax 2-stroke and no BRS.

 

 

[davidc95]

I think CASA's intervention is reasonable, Jabiru needs to change if it is to survive in the dwindling Australian aviation industry. They have developed a fantastic airframe and have made flying affordable, but now is the time to address their issues, rather then picking a fight against CASA by claiming they are being unfairly treated.

 

I'm bothered that CASA didn't communicate their proposal with RA Aus. In fact, I'm bothered with the administrative mess that Australia's aviation sector finds itself in. RA is in a financial and administrative crisis which they continue to play down, CASA is trying to weed them out with the introduction of their RPL, and now the aircraft of choice for RA flying has been officially shamed by CASA.

 

Maybe its time I switched to GA? If you can't beat em, join em!

 

 

[bexrbetter]

The RAAus email states that 0.03 percent of 90000 Jabiru movements had "some sort of engine malfunction" in the year to date. If my math is correct that's 27 engine malfunctions of any sort in one year for the whole Jabiru fleet.

90,000 x 0.03 = 2700 not 27. - Edit; Oops, my sums are way off sorry it should be 27.

 

In fact, I'm bothered with the administrative mess that Australia's aviation sector finds itself in.

I wouldn't limit that to "aviation" by any stretch of the imagination.

 

 

[davidc95]

90,000 x 0.03 = 2700 not 27.

Lol, you forgot to turn 0.03% into a decimal. Its 90000 x 0.03/100 = 27.

Jabiru would cease to exist with 2700 engine failures.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Lol, you forgot to turn 0.03% into a decimal. Its 90000 x 0.03/100 = 27.Jabiru would cease to exist with 2700 engine failures.

My apologies, blame the serious head cold I have at the moment (not joking)!

 

"engine malfunctions of any type" was the wording rather than engine failures.

 

 

[ExJourno]

is 'camit' .......... a jabiru engine ?

I say "no" to this... some one else did too.

 

Yes, threats are common and actual actions relatively rare in comparison I would imagine.

Funny thing is, some people who threaten action actually will follow through. However, yes, there is a disgraceful willingness by many to beat their chest and say "I'll call my lawyer!" whereas precious few have their lawyer's direct number to do so and even fewer are aware they need a more than just one lawyer's numbers to cover various areas of specialty... Anyway... my point was going to be that I always find it satisfyingly amusing on the occasions I am afforded the witnessing of the pure shock those on the receiving end display when they realise <whomever> actually went ahead and lawyered-up. It's priceless... well, it's pricelessly about to become billable at a catastrophically high hourly rate... usually.

 

That's a very unreasonable time frame for this very major issue that covers thousands of flyers. Some won't even hear of it until after this time.

However... if there is found to be a serious deficiency (of any engine, really) that needs urgent rectification, this delay would be seen as unacceptable and the proposed draft will be seen as a instrument that should have been effected immediately. Such actions, for the real cases (not saying that this is a real or otherwise, case) needs to be bloody swift and cannot function properly if cost is a factor in the decision on pathway. It sucks, but, assuming the case for sanctions has merit (re there being something to get fixed, so to speak), what other way is there to strong arm a manufacturer into making good?

 

based on what Don?doesnt the same 'person' build both types of engine ?

if u ignored this and crashed canu convince the judge that it is not a Jabaru engine?

Well... not exactly. CAMit, as I understand it, owns half the intellectual property on the design of the engine. And, as such, had negotiated something of an agreement for the manufacture of the Jab engine to be done by them. However, as I understand it, there is nothing stopping CAMit from profiting from a design the owner part owns. And, despite being the same, it is not a Jabiru engine. Even Jabiru will tell you that. The internals have differences... specifically stated as being in place to overcome the issues spoken of with such fond-banter, on forums such as this (attributable to CAMit, this sentence).

 

Could someone please advise how .03% stacks up against other manufacturers? Is this an acceptable level or is it high?

Funny, I replied saying something incredibly similar, to the email from RAAus.

 

 

[Roscoe]

Reading the document, I don't think Mr Ungermann agrees that you are qualified to make that assessment. Once you have your certificate he is happy for you to make that choice for yourself but not for your passenger. You must be going to learn a lot in the next few hours of training!

So, in the case of a licensed RAA Pilot Cert Holder, you cannot take a non crew passenger AND you cannot operate from a Capital City GA Airport such ad Bankstown, Archerfield eg . Is t

 

 

[01rmb]

So, in the case of a licensed RAA Pilot Cert Holder, you cannot take a non crew passenger AND you cannot operate from a Capital City GA Airport such ad Bankstown, Archerfield eg . Is t

Given the way the proposed instrument is written, you possibly can fly at Bankstown/Archerfield but only within gliding distance of somewhere to land where there are no people. So probably just circuits...

And with no passengers although you may arguably be able to take another qualified pilot. Student pilots specifically are not allowed solo.

 

 

[Roscoe]

ThN

 

Given the way the proposed instrument is written, you possibly can fly at Bankstown/Archerfield but only within gliding distance of somewhere to land where there are no people. So probably just circuits...And with no passengers although you may possibly be able to take another qualified pilot. Student pilots specifically are not allowed solo.

 

Yeah - not very clear.

Thanks for that. Interesting. I think everyone needs to chill out and wait and see. Seems ridiculous that cannot depart Bankstown and not be able to find SOMEWHERE to land!.....