CASA - Draft Proposal for Jabiru Aircraft

[facthunter]

There was a story going around when I was younger about a girl who took Vincent's with confidence .. and now she is looking for Vincent.. Nev

 

 

[dazza 38]

Nah keenaviator, this post is not creative, just asking a question. Maybe your engine is the next to grenade.

Yeah you will really be laughing when it happens to you. The thing is, I have friends who have saved their life savings and have invested into a dream. The jabiru factory have sold them that dream saying their equipment is great . Then reality sets in when their engine $hits it in a couple of hundred hours THEN they are blamed for the engine breaking down and the company walks away . What a pathetic company Jabiru is. I will happily sit back and watch Jabiru burn.

 

 

[Bennyboy320]

Looking at the RAA web site & the Sport Pilot magazine you notice that most of the Jabs for sale have had their engines replaced, makes you think that there must be a fundamental problem when compared to other engine types that last.

 

 

[facthunter]

Dazza...Ok that's your view . I don't completely share it Do you just put them out of business? That's hardly anything like a good outcome for the owners .

 

Benny boy, there is a lot who have chosen to return their engines to the factory for service rather than do it outside because it is attractive price wise and they get improvements at a good price. The factory also repair crashed airframes well, and insurance jobs go there. They have a good record in that field. Nev

 

 

[bexrbetter]

What a pathetic company Jabiru is. I will happily sit back and watch Jabiru burn.

It's a shame when the whole company gets the blame for one or two at the top's decisions, I'm sure there's many who do give a damn there or have ideas of how to go forward but are stifled by management structure.

 

I don't want to see them burn but, from the outside anyway, it looks like some of the 'Jabiru Culture' needs to be addressed and only then can the engine issues be addressed.

 

 

[dazza 38]

It's a shame when the whole company gets the blame for one or two at the top's decisions, I'm sure there's many who do give a damn there or have ideas of how to go forward but are stifled by management structure.I don't want to see them burn but, from the outside anyway, it looks like some of the 'Jabiru Culture' needs to be addressed and only then can the engine issues be addressed.

I am sure Ian Bent at CAMit has also smacked his head against the wall for a few years

 

 

[Guest Ornis]

I spy only one path out of the wilderness: CASA fast tracks approval, if needed, to fit CAMit CAE as a replacement. Drops in, same mounts. About the time it takes to tick the box.

 

Yes, I understand it takes years to "prove" an engine, but a CAE couldn't be worse. It's fundamentally the same engine with worthwhile improvements.

 

Yes, it remains a lightly-built engine with very little alloy and fins around the exhaust port, for example. No doubt CAMit could improve this. It may always be susceptible to and very unforgiving of overheating compared with Lycoming and Continental. Nobody expects a miracle, just a step forward.

 

I don't believe CASA is out to destroy anything. Except perhaps the myth. The reality is Jabiru has lost the plot. The only thing that will destroy Jabiru is Jabiru itself.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I must have missed something because I don't recall ever reading about Gandalph's legal quLifications or his role as an officer of the Court.I'd appreciate that information being repeated for my benefit, please.

 

Kaz

Post #1065, Page 54 Kaz

 

 

[turboplanner]

Can either of you offer an opinion regarding the current daft from casa increasing the exposure of instructors or the raa for that matter, in the worst possible case scenario, with regards to possible litigation?My q is , does strong statement front the regulator, even in a draft form, set a precedent for anyone wishing to prove neglegance?

Since I've been accused of hyperbole, which I take very personally. I'll make some enquiries this week and see if I can get you a specialist to talk to.

 

 

[gandalph]

Can either of you offer an opinion regarding the current daft from casa increasing the exposure of instructors or the raa for that matter, in the worst possible case scenario, with regards to possible litigation?My q is , does strong statement front the regulator, even in a draft form, set a precedent for anyone wishing to prove neglegance?

Merv, it's a valid question and perhaps you should seek advice from a professional in that field rather than seek opinions here. It may need a trip to the big smoke.

 

 

[2tonne]

Merv...that question really needs a lot of research and thought requiring more spare time and knowledge than I have before it can be answered with any authority.It's not my area of expertise and all I can say is that it won't help.

 

Another interesting issue I have been pondering is holding CASA to account for the loss of value owners and operators will undoubtedly suffer irrespective of the outcome.

 

Section 51 of the Australian Constitution says:

 

"(xxxi.) The acquisition of property on just terms from any State or person for any purpose in respect of which the Parliament has power to make laws"

 

It seems to me at first blush that "property" may have a wide meaning depending on the circumstances and that if CASA acts under laws of the Parliament to appropriate some or all of the currently legal rights of the owner of a Jabiru engine-powered 24 aircraft, such as limiting its operation from what has been previously legal under CASA's regulatory standards, an argument can be made that CASA should pay the owner compensation. Rod Stiff might be thinking along that line, too.

 

Not my area as I said before, but interesting to think about.

 

Kaz

I will qualify what I am about to write by saying that I am not a lawyer. However, I am a patent attorney specialising in intellectual property (a form of intangible property, as opposed to real property). If the term "property" as used above were to encompass a right to operate an aircraft in a particular manner, then this "property" would presumably have to be some form of intangible right. However, when we consider whether something intangible is a form of property, we usually look to see if ownership of the property is something that can be transferred by way of assignment, agreement or by virtue of a particular law (e.g., employer ownership of inventions). At first glance, I can't see that the right to operate an aircraft in a particular manner per se could be transferred to another person. Although, when you purchase an aircraft, perhaps you are also taking ownership of that right. And, if you cannot then sell that right with the aircraft...

 

You are right Kaz, interesting to think about.

 

 

[geoffreywh]

Have you ever heard of a idom that says "Drawing a long bow?"............................ I can't see this Jabiru thing ending well for owners/operators. We have heard that Jab have been canvassing schools for good news and disregarding those that don't have any. That doesn't sound good at all....................... I would guess CASA could enforce that certain "Updates" ( proffered by Jab. ) be administered. At the owners cost of course. OR more likely that nothing happens and we get a bunch of "How to run a Jab engine " bulletins. Then , when the thing goes bad (again) it will be "Operators Fault ".. "They could not have followed the guidelines, otherwise the engine would not have failed".......Time will tell....

 

 

[DonRamsay]

No you didn't dream it, just forgot there was the tiny detail that the instructor had not been negligent.

Turbo, that case did not turn on negligence because negligence was not considered. In any ordinary sense I thought the instructor was negligent passing up two good runways with an engine that was playing up.

IIRC the decision was in line with the NSW legislation toning down the issue of negligence in dangerous activities. Essentially, the judgement said that if you want to fly in single engine aircraft you are exposing yourself to the possibility of a forced landing. Case thrown out.

 

 

[Guest Ornis]

If you send a student pilot on a solo cross-country and the Jabiru engine fails it might be more than your conscience troubling you.

 

It doesn't matter whether CASA's broad brush has altered the landscape or not, if you trip you're going into a pit to be ripped apart by lawyers.

 

Good luck with statistics and a jury.

 

 

[Bennyboy320]

Well thats something new to me, get a service on the engine & get it zero houred again, nice. Also WHY would an engine require a top end overall after 400 hrs.

 

 

[facthunter]

That's been covered many times. Nev

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Gentlemen , ladies,

 

In respect to the ending of the consultation period where imput was requested by CASA on the proposed Instrument limiting Jab operations. This consultation period ended COB 27 Nov 2014 (Thursday) and I direct you to the following :........

 

From the .....'Clarification and extension to response period (CD1425SS) ...Page 2....

 

' No operational limitations of any kind have been imposed at this point.'

 

' No action has been taken by CASA at this point to impose any operational limitations other than to publish notice of the limitations CASA proposes, and to invite public comment on these limitations.'

 

' No action will be taken by CASA to impose any operational limitations until after the relevent responses to the invitation for comment have been considered....'

 

The full document (CD1425 SS) can be accessed and read in its entirety, from one of this treads early posts.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Turbo, that case did not turn on negligence because negligence was not considered. In any ordinary sense I thought the instructor was negligent passing up two good runways with an engine that was playing up.IIRC the decision was in line with the NSW legislation toning down the issue of negligence in dangerous activities. Essentially, the judgement said that if you want to fly in single engine aircraft you are exposing yourself to the possibility of a forced landing. Case thrown out.

Yours is the second version I'm not responding to. The other version quoted prescriptive Acts.

 

 

[dazza 38]

The only way out IMO is for Jab to sit down with CAMit, put together a plan to certify and implement the latest CAMit engine into their new aeroplanes. They will have to also bite the bullet and help out existing owners with a subsidised engine replacement program. The replacement programe will have to be spread out over a few years, maybe 5 or so. By then the majority of current Jab engines will have been due for overhaul, well the flying school ones will have. Those aircraft can have a straight swap out with the latest CAMit engine.

 

Owners who do not cross hire to a school and are happy with their current engine, they should be able to keep using their existing engine.

 

 

[gandalph]

The only way out IMO is for Jab to sit down with CAMit, put together a plan to certify and implement the latest CAMit engine into their new aeroplanes. Requires much time and much money, and with (I imagine) the order books pretty empty, neither of those companies is likely to have much money coming in. They They? Who? will have to also bite the bullet and help out existing owners with a subsidised engine replacement program See comments above re: money. The replacement programe will have to be spread out over a few years, maybe 5 or so. By then the majority of current Jab engines will have been due for overhaul, well the flying school ones will have. Those aircraft can have a straight swap out with the latest CAMit engine.Owners who do not cross hire to a school and are happy with their current engine, they should be able to keep using their existing engine.

[DonRamsay]

If you send a student pilot on a solo cross-country and the Jabiru engine fails it might be more than your conscience troubling you.It doesn't matter whether CASA's broad brush has altered the landscape or not, if you trip you're going into a pit to be ripped apart by lawyers.

 

Good luck with statistics and a jury.

That exact scenario almost happened to me. Was due for a solo Nav in a J160 - Nav delayed one day and died in the air on the day I was booked to go cross country. Once almost bitten . . .

 

 

[Dieselten]

The period for submissions has ended, now we must wait to see if the "mountain groans and gives forth a mouse."

 

Those concerned with any potential loss of value of their Jabiru aircraft might draw some comfort from tthe fact that their potential loss pales into insignificance compared to the loss of credibility, respect and wordwide standing which this has caused CASA as an organisation. It must now be perceived by many similar organisations, as well as influential individuals in governments, as a deeply-flawed, role-playing bureaucracy, terminally-infested with ex-military buffers and empire-builders who have little or no concept of civilian aviation operations, economics or its importance in the general economic health of the nation.

 

An incoming head of the organisation might well see this debacle as a suitable pretext for a thorough sweeping of the Augean stables. He certainly has a big enough broom, if he cares to use it.

 

 

[ave8rr]

How many CAMit engines are in operation currently?

The only way out IMO is for Jab to sit down with CAMit, put together a plan to certify and implement the latest CAMit engine into their new aeroplanes. They will have to also bite the bullet and help out existing owners with a subsidised engine replacement program. The replacement programe will have to be spread out over a few years, maybe 5 or so. By then the majority of current Jab engines will have been due for overhaul, well the flying school ones will have. Those aircraft can have a straight swap out with the latest CAMit engine.Owners who do not cross hire to a school and are happy with their current engine, they should be able to keep using their existing engine.

dazza, I think there is still a lot of R&D going on with the Camit engine. There are still less than thirty 3300's out there and less than half doz 2200's. There are also a few Jab plated engines with Camit mods. Not sure of numbers. Would be nice to know how many of the 3300's are operating outside Aus?

 

 

[kaz3g]

A licence is property and I was extending that concept to include certification and the usage rights that flow from that.

 

It's one thing to take action over the maintenance (or lack thereof) of a particular engine, or even the need to replace known defective engine parts across the fleet, but an entirely different one to effectively ground or substantially curtail the use of a whole fleet permanently, if that is the eventual result, without identifying a specific fault.

 

Rod Stiff's public comments appear to be focused on loss of reputation and the commercial damage flowing from it. The company will be barred from suing for defamation because it employs more than 10 people, but it's directors may be able to do so as individuals. The company might look at s52 of the TPA and tort law (malicious falsehood) for remedies.

 

Kaz

 

 

[dazza 38]

Maybe another solution would be for the mandatory fitment of CHT probes on every cylinder with a display in the cockpit with a audible alarm that is set at a certain temperature.