rankamateur Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 I notice no board members chirping into this discussion! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueadventures Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 I'm going to give "office works" a try, They did the Jab manuals quite cheaply Maybe Ian could quote to supply. Its another item for the shop and we would be supporting him with any purchases. I'd be happy to prepay and await delivery when there are enough committed to buy. Cheers Mike 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhysmcc Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 And i wonder how many pilots here actually go and update their AIP each cycle? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 And i wonder how many pilots here actually go and update their AIP each cycle? Not many if I am anything to go by. I use Oz runways. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhysmcc Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Maybe we should ask oz runways to include the ops manual and then people would be happy to use it digitally 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Seems no one from the RAA wants to own this? C'mon CASA are always pounding on the RAA about pilots not knowing/breaking the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camel Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Maybe we should ask oz runways to include the ops manual and then people would be happy to use it digitally The ops manual is on the RAA web page, open it on your iPad and save it to ozrunways documents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 not the same, these old guys love a paper copy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 If you feel strongly that what is offered is not right then you can either write to the CEO and state what and why, or, as you have suggested take the job elsewhere. The inference, whether intended or not, that we have staff just waiting to get a print order, at which point we play the pink floyd money song loudly full bore in the office is wrong... We have sufficient staff to barely do the required day job and write the requirements for the upcoming new business systems..... I don't know it for fact, but I suspect the CEO has to offer the solution price for the small number of folk who for whatever reason just can't find an alternate, but high enough that the majority will do their own thing. We don't have resources to spare on things not strategic. A price that seems too high to the point that you find an alternative solution is actually not a gouge because you never paid it...... The cost to RAAus for each print order isn't what it costs to deliver that solution, but also what didn't get delivered, or delayed because they were otherwise directed. The reason we don't comment here, is simply because even though these are simply my uneducated views, rather than board policy ( and we wouldn't have policy on something like this, it's entirely within the CEOs remit) people write to the president and others about "board policy as stated by Andy or Ross", conveniently forgetting about any disclaimer we add, and generally with a tone suggesting that execution as a minimum would be acceptable compensation.........irony is that was me previously! I guess I'm seeing both sides now! Anyway it has been suggested that we simply not participate where we can be misquoted, or that we might end up getting into an area, like this, which simply is not board policy. If you write to the CEO, and are totally dissatisfied with his response and can't get to where you need to be then at that stage we can consider, but not before giving the CEO first right of reply for something he clearly is responsible for. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 I still believe that provision of usable technical and operations manuals is core business. Certainly if cost is being considered perhaps it could be managed by making the provision of hard copy manuals to require a physical opt-in by the member instead of an automatic mail out as it once would have been. Those that are suggesting they are quite comfortable e-reading it, taking no action would cause the saving to be made on their behalf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head in the clouds Posted December 4, 2014 Author Share Posted December 4, 2014 If you feel strongly that what is offered is not right then you can either write to the CEO and state what and why, or, as you have suggested take the job elsewhere.The inference, whether intended or not, that we have staff just waiting to get a print order, at which point we play the pink floyd money song loudly full bore in the office is wrong... We have sufficient staff to barely do the required day job and write the requirements for the upcoming new business systems..... I don't know it for fact, but I suspect the CEO has to offer the solution price for the small number of folk who for whatever reason just can't find an alternate, but high enough that the majority will do their own thing. We don't have resources to spare on things not strategic. A price that seems too high to the point that you find an alternative solution is actually not a gouge because you never paid it...... The cost to RAAus for each print order isn't what it costs to deliver that solution, but also what didn't get delivered, or delayed because they were otherwise directed. The reason we don't comment here, is simply because even though these are simply my uneducated views, rather than board policy ( and we wouldn't have policy on something like this, it's entirely within the CEOs remit) people write to the president and others about "board policy as stated by Andy or Ross", conveniently forgetting about any disclaimer we add, and generally with a tone suggesting that execution as a minimum would be acceptable compensation.........irony is that was me previously! I guess I'm seeing both sides now! Anyway it has been suggested that we simply not participate where we can be misquoted, or that we might end up getting into an area, like this, which simply is not board policy. If you write to the CEO, and are totally dissatisfied with his response and can't get to where you need to be then at that stage we can consider, but not before giving the CEO first right of reply for something he clearly is responsible for. Andy Thanks Andy. However your comment that I was suggesting "that we have staff just waiting to get a print order" is completely missing the point. The staff aren't printing the Ops Manual, I copy/pasted the exact response from the RAAus office in the first post - "We are still waiting on the printers for the new Operations Manual, the cost of it will be $60.00. Unfortunately I don’t have a timeframe for its arrival. The copy on the website has been changed to a more print friendly single page copy that you may want to look at." As you see, the Printers are printing the Manual, not the staff at the RAAus office. An emailout announcement was made that the Ops Manual was now available/posted on the website. I find it a bit surprising that at the same time the office didn't consider asking who might want a printed copy before putting an order in to the printers for the free copies they plan to give out to the FTFs. I'll certainly follow your suggestion and write to the CEO because I'd like to know how much the printers are charging RAA compared to what RAA are charging a member who wants a hard copy and doesn't have his own print facility. As rankamateur points out - this is the core business of RAA, making sure we have and are familiar with the appropriate documentation for our operations. I think it's scandalous pricing the Ops Manual at a level which is clearly many times its cost to RAA - and that consequently discourages members from being familiar with the new rules. It's ridiculous. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head in the clouds Posted December 4, 2014 Author Share Posted December 4, 2014 OK, I have done as Andy suggested and written to the CEO Michael Linke as follows - Dear Michael, First, thank you for the excellent progress that has been very evident at RAA HQ lately. However I would like to bring a small matter to your attention as it is of concern to some. Earlier this week I was having difficulty trying to print a copy of the new V7 Ops Manual from the *.pdf posted on the RAA website. The first page was formatted singly and all the rest were in pairs which, regardless of printer settings, couldn't be made to match up satisfactorily for double-sided printing. Rather than ask the office staff to spend extra time re-formatting the pages I thought it might be easier to just order a printed copy from the RAA, so I enquired of the price. I received the following response - We are still waiting on the printers for the new Operations Manual, the cost of it will be $60.00. Unfortunately I don’t have a timeframe for its arrival. The copy on the website has been changed to a more print friendly single page copy that you may want to look at. I thought the price of $60 to be ridiculously high for an essential operational document so went back to printing my own copy. Shortly afterwards I was in conversation about this with a couple of fellow members who made it quite clear that they would never be bothered to read a document of any length on a screen and neither would they pay an exorbitant price like that - it's only a mere 39x A4 sheets after all. Also, they had no means of printing their own and no intention of 'mucking about trying to get a printer to sort it out'. So that leaves us with a situation where some flying members, rightly or wrongly, will not be aware of the current regulations with which they are required to comply. I posted a question on a popular forum about this, asking what other members thought, and I worked out what my real costs of printing, guillotining and punching amounted to. It was just $4.82 per copy and that included a realistic costing for the time spent on the process, the paper, printer running cost, even an envelope and stamp, and time allowed to address the envelope. It's just 11mm thick so can be sent by standard letter mail at a cost of 70c. Some comments on the forum point out that the dissemination of operational information is the core business of RAA, and others including CASA, might say it was the primary business of the organisation. That makes me wonder why our essential operational documentation is so highly priced that members are discouraged from purchasing them, and consequently some will be flying while not appraised of the current rules. By "so highly priced" I would like to point out that this little booklet has been priced at 1/3 the cost of RAA annual membership! It seems a little insulting too, that these seemingly expensive manuals are to be distributed free to all FTFs, at the expense of other members, some of whom can't justify the expense of possessing one themselves. The FTFs are commercial operations and their documentation is a normal, and tax-deductible, part of the running costs of their businesses. The discussion thread I mentioned contains a lot of helpful input on the subject. It includes comment about the way the GA amendments are promulgated, where disposing of the entire document each time a change is made is avoided, unlike the case with our changeover from V6 to V7. Here is a link to the discussion should it be of interest to you. Kind regards, 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Page Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 not the same, these old guys love a paper copy YES...YES... KP.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhysmcc Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Do you also have a paper copy of the Civil Aviation Regulations and Civil Aviation Safety Regulations? Neither are of these 2 documents are provided free of charge and bounded ($245 not including p/h). You can however access them online in digital (and downloadable) form! I can't see how CASA can claim providing a digital version isn't safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunder Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Bit of a "storm in a teacup" all of this isn't it really? A printers can do it for ten to twenty dollars.......yay...too easy...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nong Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Anyway..... most RAAus pilots NEVER look at their Ops manual except when I force them to read sections of my copy during training or BFRs. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 If you manual is not amended up to date , and you don't know the latest changes you lose your job, in some places I have been. What is the ACTUAL standard out there. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head in the clouds Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 After three weeks I still didn't have an answer to the letter I sent to CEO Michael (see post #37) so I sent them a reminder. I received the following from the Executive Assistant - Good Morning Alan, Thank you for your email, we are sorry we missed it Michael has been on leave for a month and there were several different mail boxes we were running for the Acting CEO at the time. We realised that the version we placed on the website wasn’t printable but since then we have placed a printable version up. If you do not want to print your own copy, we have a couple of options for you; - We can send you the latest Ops manual version 7 without the binder and technical manual for $20.00 - Or we can send you a CD with the Ops manual version 7, Technical Manual and Syllabus flight training as well as some other useful links for the price of postage, which would be around $7.00. If you have any questions, please don’t hesitate to contact me. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Kind Regards I replied with - Hi Kelly, Thanks for your response. As you may have noticed from my correspondence and the link I sent you to the discussion on the forum, it is not I that I am concerned about. I have a technologically sophisticated office and am able to print the manual with ease. My concern is for some of the other members, who, as I mentioned, cannot easily print their own and have declared that they will not/cannot read it on the screen nor pay an exorbitant price to purchase a hard copy. Nonetheless may I pass on your response to the members in general, assuming that all, or any of them, will be offered a printed Ops and Tech manual, without binder, for $20 incl p&p? And a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you also, and to all the staff. Thank you all very much for your fine efforts this year, we appreciate it immensely. Best wishes, Alan I have just received the following - Hi Alan, It would only be the new Ops manual they receive not the Tech manual as it is still the current one. It would be $27.00 all up with postage and handling. If you have any more questions please don’t hesitate to contact me. Happy New Year Kind Regards So - it's a step forward, but I still think it's ludicrous that our organisation wants to charge us $27 for essential documentation that I have demonstrated can be produced and delivered on a one-off basis from a home office - the least efficient way of producing anything, mind you - for a total cost of $4.82 i.e. 1/6 of the price RAAus consider to be reasonable. Further - where are RAAus getting their pricing from? How can they first say $60 then suddenly be able to drop the price by more than 50%. It seems like a game of of 'pick-a-number, any number' to me ... and - it seems rather odd that I can have an Ops Manual and Tech Manual for $20, but the rest of you will only get the Ops Manual ... is this an RAAus 'first in best dressed' policy? What do other members think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coljones Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 - We can send you the latest Ops manual version 7 without the binder and technical manual for $20.00 I read this as - for $20 inc P/P you can have the Ops Manual BUT NEITHER a binder NOR a Tech Manual. Maybe the "and" between "binder" and "technical" should have been an "or". Ah, the beauty of the English language!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarly Gnu Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 most RAAus pilots NEVER look at their Ops manual except when I force them to read sections of my copy during training or BFRs. What's it all about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunder Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 HITC, I think you should go for a fly........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhysmcc Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Why is the CEO on leave for a month? He hasn't been in the job a year and already accrued that amount of leave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 No...like many who change jobs he had international travel for he and his family already arranged when he came to us (it was only circa 6months previous that he started), I presume that he and the board of the time simply reached an agreement to either have leave without pay for all or some of the time, or we agreed to allow him to go into the red for leave balance.......That by todays standards is not at all unheard of... in fact pretty much standard fare for all HR departments and line managers these days if you want to get the right people to work for your company. Andy P.S this is my opinion and not necessarily the opinion of the current board of RAAus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webbm Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 You could always go to Officeworks and print it yourself: http://www.officeworks.com.au/shop/officeworks/Print-And-Copy/Bound-Documents Our Ops Manual is 78 pages @ 0.07c / page = $5.46 + binding (I like coil - but not good for updates) $3.80 = $9.27. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinsm Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 $60 is nothing if you can afford $180K for a new plane Didnt pay 180k for a new plane, didnt pay 30k for one either. Built the thing on a budget (remember them, building on a a budget???) object to paying $60 for a document that I thought was covered by my membership. After all, membership increased, temora cancelled, magazine cancelled (what the hell is isuuu.com), new regs and rules. Bu..er this, I am going flying. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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