Ethanol in Fuel

[SDQDI]

Agree wholeheartedly Ozzie. With the questionable quality of even premium fuels and never discounting fools and sabotage it is well worth it if you are just building or have the opportunity to change your lines ect. An ounce of prevention is more than worth a pound of cure.

 

 

[Powerin]

So what do the likes of the Ipanema ag plane (Brazilian - now made by Embraer), that Nev mentioned, do to their engines and systems that they can handle 100% ethanol?

 

 

[facthunter]

I would say metal tanks and pipes. I wouldn't keep old neoprene or rubber fuel pipes in there very long. This fuel business is a worry for aviators. Nev

 

 

[SDQDI]

So what do the likes of the Ipanema ag plane (Brazilian - now made by Embraer), that Nev mentioned, do to their engines and systems that they can handle 100% ethanol?

I'm not an expert but have been told that 100% ethanol is a lot better/easier to manage than part ethanol part petrol. Seems that on their own they are good products but once they are blended more problems arise.

As I said I'm not an expert but that is what I have heard

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Go electric that itll fix it.

 

 

[Downunder]

Go electric that itll fix it.

I'm with you......but still waiting.......

 

 

[Vev]

In my view, ethanol and aviation do not mix well and should be avoided. Ethanol in aviation fuels can create numerous problems that will jump up and bite you without warning.

 

As with all fuels, stability through oxidation will produce various residues that will leave stubborn deposits throughout the fuel system and more so with ethanol blends.

 

Ethanol is hydroscopic and will absorb water from the atmosphere that will cause corrosion and accelerate oxidation which will leave horrible deposits if left long enough. Additionally, Ethanol will damage many plastics and soften fibregalss and turn clear screens foggy.

 

Whilst ethanol will bump up octane, it does have a lower energy value and will require a higher volume (approx. 5% more for E10) to deliver the same calorific value… this can lead to lean burning and cause serious engine damage. It also has a high latent heat of evaporation and can act like a refrigerant and will increase the risk of carb icing… not a good look when on final.

 

It is also heavier than Avgas or 95/98 Mogas and will reduce you load carrying of you ac … I agree not much in terms of an E10 although those 100% variants in Brazil can be 30 kg heavier per 100lt of fuel.

 

Personally I don’t use E10 in any of my toys.

 

Cheers

 

Vev

 

 

[dsam]

why are you not testing the fuel before you put it in your tanks. Self preservation my friends. Ethanol in fuel may be ok if your tanks are made of vinyl ester resins but what is it doing to your fuel lines and carbies? Simple test to see if ethanol is present. Been doing it for years every time I buy fuel from the gas station. I use 98 fuel in the aircraft. Any ethanol would degrade the octane rating.

Perhaps I missed something earlier in the thread. Just what is the "simple test" for ethanol please robinsm?

 

Also, is Opal only supplied as a low octane fuel? Do they supply a high octane Opal? Any ethanol in Opal?

 

 

[spacesailor]

Hi dsam, to answer this question :

 

"Perhaps I missed something earlier in the thread. Just what is the "simple test" for ethanol please"

 

Put 10ml of water in a glass container, add 40ml petrol, shake it up, & let settle.

 

If the water is MORE than 10ml, its pulled the ethanol out of the petrol, and possibley the water has a cloudy look.

 

If it's still 10 ml of water and clear there's no additives in the petrol.

 

And Ozzie. electric uses heavy batteries, so go fuelcell, if you can get the Hydrogen!

 

spacesailor

 

 

[robinsm]

correct, as above dsam. should be doing it all the time. simple and engine saving.

 

 

[dsam]

correct, as above dsam. should be doing it all the time. simple and engine saving.

Thanks robinsm and spacesailor! Will now be checking my 98 premium.

Anyone know about Opal fuel? I have considered going to some rather remote areas, and am concerned only Opal will be available. If so, I'd need to know what I'm dealing with in terms of octane and ethanol content.

 

 

[dsam]

Ok, it looks like courtesy of Google I've found the answer to most of my questions about Opal fuel:

 

http://www.bp.com/en_au/australia/products-services/fuels/opal-fuel/opal-faqs.html

 

It seems it is only 91 octane rating. Too low for my Rotax 912ULS. The above link seems to indicate that Premium unleaded should still be available but only via a locked pump. I guess I'll need to convince the pump operator I'm not planning to sniff it during my pre-flight

 

 

[facthunter]

Might be like buying wine/spirits in certain areas. eg Kakadu. You have to produce a car licence and the sale is recorded. No problem really. Nev

 

 

[spacesailor]

Unless you Dont have a photo-driver's licence!.

 

Next question is: If you dont have a drivers licence as never needed, can you still get a RA pilot certificate ?,

 

spacesailor

 

 

[facthunter]

Yes. You meet the medical standard for a driver's licence. You don't have to actually have one. Nev

 

 

[biggles]

Yes. You meet the medical standard for a driver's licence. You don't have to actually have one. Nev

How does the individual know if he meets the standard for a drivers licence if he doesn't have one ? The final decision on whether the individual is fit , rests with the State licence issuing authority . Licences can be issued for 10 years in some States and a person may become cognitively or physically impaired during that time . The system basically relies on the honesty of the person to disclose certain medical issues and, in some instances support with medical evidence . Bob

 

 

[facthunter]

Over a certain age or under other conditions where you have had surgery or whatever you will have to get this from your doctor. The decision whether the driving authority will let you drive rests with them . Your doctor will submit the evidence to them if needed.. The state driving authority has nothing to do with your flying . The RAAus administer the pilot certificate and stipulate the requirements under the authority they have. It does rely on the honesty of the individual but that is the same as with class 1 and 2 where you are supposed to notify CASA if you have any condition that would stop you flying.. Nev

 

 

[tillmanr]

A young person can be issued a pilot certificate or pilot licence years before a drivers licence

 

 

[facthunter]

Not a CPL.

 

Having a drivers licence has little to do directly with meeting the medical standard to hold one, if you don't obey the regulations. If you make a declaration on a document that you DO meet the "STANDARD".. THAT is different. If you are lying you could have severe penalties applied. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

The Australian Government has a requirement for all pumps to be branded "Contains up to x% ethanol", or Contains y% ethanol"

 

Yet as I've been going around lately looking carefully at pumps to make sure I'm not having ethanol dumped on me, there seems to be a lot of deception around.

 

For example

 

One brand admits to 91 Octane having 10% methanol, but touts it's 95 as "self cleaning" which could mean anything

 

Another brand describes 91 as "benefits compared to unadditised fuel, and admits its 95 has 10% ethanol

 

Another brand contains no admission of ethanol in 91, 95 or 98

 

When you go to the website, there seems to be just as much reluctance to tell the truth. The brand with no admissions at the pump describes its 91 having up to 10% ethanol.

 

Looks like the Govrenment needs to take a much closer look at what is going on in the market place.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

The Australian Government has a requirement for all pumps to be branded "Contains up to x% ethanol", or Contains y% ethanol...Looks like the Govrenment needs to take a much closer look at what is going on in the market place.

I agree, Turbs. Trouble is, every time governments make cutbacks, the "public servants" who lose their jobs include the experienced people who are supposed to be protecting us from shonky operators. As you would know, a key feature of advanced economies is the maintenance by governments of high product standards in food, buildings, fuel, vehicles, etc.

 

I we can't trust the label on the product, governments should step in.

 

 

[facthunter]

You can have Rafferty's rules or proper standards. You should have a fundamental right to know what you are buying in anything. Nev