Best Value RA-Aus Training in $ per Hr Dual??

[Nev25]

Possibly mate. Pretty scary. It certainly is true, but a standard must be reached and demonstrated.

And also a PC can be and often is gained as a cheaper way into a GA Licence is it not (some flying schools promote this)

 

 

[Happyflyer]

I digress

Another way of looking at it

 

I'm a trained and accredited sports coach

 

I offer my services to others that want to be coached for free

 

Why because I love the chosen sport and want to see others excel and numbers increase

 

Does this mean the next coach that is charging $$$$$ any better coach than me??

It certainly doesn't mean they are better than you. BUT, if a coach is paid he or she may be able to afford more time and resources to do a better job. I realize that it will cost the student more but that's the choice.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes nev. It often is, and it's often not accepted too,unfortunately.

 

I've worked at schools that do conversions, and I can tell you without any shadow of a doubt, there is a huge difference in standards.

 

Regardless of what the cerificate says, what matters is the skills and ability you posses.. If the poo hits the fan, it's not the cerificate that saves you mate;)

 

 

[facthunter]

You are only an ab-initio pilot once. It's your grounding in Aviation or the foundation if you like. You will continue to learn (unless you are complete fool, by thinking you don't need to) BUT you may have some errors of perception/understanding that could be fairly fundamental and BITE you one day. The QUALITY of your basic training can't be over stressed for the average pilot. Some get multiple opportunities to revisit their training but many get none. The things I'm talking of don't usually get picked up on an AFR. Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Does this mean the next coach that is charging $$$$$ any better coach than me??

No, but it certainly doesnt mean your training is better either:) How would it be for your industry if everyone offered the service for free or next to it?

 

 

[facthunter]

Isn't that what we generally have now?. The reason some pilots get low wages is a lot will do it for free. Nothing's changed in at least 60 years.. Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Isn't that what we generally have now?. The reason some pilots get low wages is a lot will do it for free. Nothing's changed in at least 60 years.. Nev

So? We should just accept it and move on and use "cheap training" as a basis for deciding where to go? Where would any profession be if everyone did it for free? I used to like the fact my Qantas captain was paid squillions, made me feel all warm and fuzzy knowing he was at the top of his profession. Now days, I have 22 year old 2nd officers calling me asking for instructing work cause they cant live on the 40k they are getting.

 

 

[facthunter]

Plenty of full time pilots get unbelievably low wages. I'm not suggesting we just accept anything, but you have to take people with you to get changes made and pilots are fairly self focussed and independent as a general rule. That translates as being pretty good at looking after their interest first.

 

There seems to be plenty of praise for certain schools here on the forum, yet there is a belief around (which I share) that standards could be a lot better. Nev

 

 

[ben87r]

Low paid pilots you reckon nev?! that sounds like a pretty familiar story .

 

 

[robinsm]

How much is your life worth in an emergency. Cheap lessons usually equate to cheap information and skipped essentials. I would rather pay someone fair dollars and receive quality training because one day my life will depend on it. How much does learning to fly Raa Aus equate to the cost of your aircraft and its repairs. Just sayin'

 

 

[OZJohn]

Thousands of glider pilots have been instructed very well - for free. They only pay aircraft hire in the club scene.

 

 

[robinsm]

I know, I was trained on a hire only basis but we are talking flying schools here which are commercial organisations. If you can get a qualified instructor to train you for free then I hope the training is worth more than you pay for it when the excrement hits the fan...

 

 

[facthunter]

One aspect I've noticed is the amount of apprehension a lot of pilots exhibit when you do a fair dinkum sideslip or a one wheel landing (NOT the front one) or fly fairly slow. IF you are worried about being able to handle the conditions you sure won't enjoy it and you are NOT SAFE. You must know your and the planes limits. It is all very well to say "I only fly in calm conditions, and I don't do a lot of hours but I'm careful and avoid what I can't handle" . Well you just never know when a little dust devil will get you or a bit of turbulence downwind of a clump of trees when landing. or an unforecast sea breeze will come through. Quick and positive response is what gets you out of these situations. Slow and timid won't do it. Nev

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Thousands of glider pilots have been instructed very well - for free. They only pay aircraft hire in the club scene.

Ah yes the glider scene. Where you have the freedom to do what the club wants, when the club wants if the club wants.

 

 

[facthunter]

And if it goes tribal you better be on the correct side. Same with bowling clubs. I'm wary of depending on a lot of others for my continuation of anything. Nev

 

 

[Nev25]

No, but it certainly doesnt mean your training is better either:) How would it be for your industry if everyone offered the service for free or next to it?

Would be fantastic for the sport

 

There is the Horsham flying club in Vic, Jab $140 Hr Training but have no reports on Training

http://www.horshamflyingclub.org.au/lsa_flight_training.htm

Apparently they now charge $170/h there website is very much out of date!!!!!

 

How much is your life worth in an emergency. Cheap lessons usually equate to cheap information and skipped essentials. I would rather pay someone fair dollars and receive quality training because one day my life will depend on it. How much does learning to fly Raa Aus equate to the cost of your aircraft and its repairs. Just sayin'

I tell you what

 

Ill pay $140/h you make up the difference for a good school as I cannot afford one

 

 

[robinsm]

so can you afford a bad one?

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Confucius say: "Think not what you can afford, think what it could cost."

 

 

[Nev25]

so can you afford a bad one?

A bad one or more cost efficient one?

Or someone who is more interested in one achieving there dream as opposed to one who is lining there own pocket

 

 

[Happyflyer]

A bad one or more cost efficient one?Or someone who is more interested in one achieving there dream as opposed to one who is lining there own pocket

I think that is a bit harsh. The amateur instructor at the club definitely has his place. But so does the professional and it is up to the student to judge value for money. Just because a professional instructor is trying to make a living does not mean he is trying to rip you off. Aviation is a small world in Australia and word of mouth soon sorts out the rip off merchants.

 

 

[SDQDI]

All this talk of cheap schools being dodgy or somehow inferior isn't really helpful.

 

The original poster was after good value which, IMO, takes into account pricing, quality, variety and any other obvious factors. Yes sometimes a cheap option will turn out to be dodgy but expensive options can also turn out that way and at the end of the day we (rec flying pilots) are always trying to save money and sometimes (quiet often) the difference between 140$hr and 200$hr can be the difference between fulfilling a dream or not even starting.

 

I would think there would be quiet a few things which would affect pricing and also a fair few things to consider when trying to work out true value of money spent.

 

Location is a big one that affects in so many different ways. I learnt at gunnedah which has a left and right hand runway (variety), it is also a fairly quiet strip which wasn't controlled airspace with its own CTAF and a majority of the time we had it to ourselves which means I wasn't paying for excessive taxi/holding time. BUT that also means I didn't spend a lot of time on the radio to others (still did all my radio calls in the circuit of course but talking to yourself isn't really the same) so until I did my nav out of tamworth (controlled airspace) I was still fairly nervous talking to others. The weather out here (gunnedah, Quirindi ect) is generally pretty good and I think I can only remember one or two lessons being postponed because of it, but it is something to keep in mind ESPECIALLY if you plan to do it in a two or three week block a fair distance from your homebase. What extra charges are there at the strip? For example are the landing charges included/covered by the hourly rate.

 

Personalities is also a big one. We all know that we get along with some people better than others and some people that others get along with we can find obnoxious so I think it is very important to have a look around maybe do a TIF at a few places and just see how their personality clicks/clashes with yours. The price of a tif is a small price to pay if it finds a good match or alternatively if it shows you that you won't like it at that particular spot.

 

Aircraft. Take into account what you want to be doing AFTER you have completed your training, what aircraft will be close and available to hire and is the school you are looking at using a similar plane. IMHO getting your cert and then not flying for 12 months is pointless and you will find you will have to do half as much time again to get the swing back so what is AVAILABLE.

 

Anyway just my thoughts on it, no doubt there is plenty more to it.

 

 

[Squizzyhunter]

OK I am going to have a little bit of input here. I have been a bit reticent to add my bit because I actually Think that the original poster asked a question that in my opinion was not the correct question for someone wanting to learn to fly. Although he/she did allude to the correct question in the explanation.

What is the best value RA-Aus training in $ per hour Dual? Now although I understand the reason for the question I think it is irrelevant. Why?

 

Flight training is a combination of Skills based training with a large amount of theory. I am not going to go into percentages or how it should be balanced, there are people far more experienced than me who can do that far better than me. Having taught theory and practical in trades based topics for several years, below is my opinion and only my opinion and an insight into my thought process in selecting an FTF and reflections on my decision 6 months down the track. Remember 6 months ago I could identify an airplane and call it a Cessna 90% of the time. I now have just under 150 hours of which 1/3 is dual with about 7 different instructors.

 

Six months ago apart from a childhood dream and a 1 hour joyflight over Uluru in a Robinson R44, I had absolutely no light aircraft experience. I don't count the half a dozen parachuting flights that I did 35 years ago because I never actually landed in the plane in any of those. In short that joyflight as a 55 year old overweight (OK fat) man reignited my childhood dream to fly. So onto the net and do some research. In short at 127.00 kgs I was 20 kgs over the maximum seat weight for any of the affordable helicopters. I was also way to heavy for gliders in the places that I asked. That left me with fixed wing. Now in short RA-Aus provided the cheapest, quickest and simplest method of getting my fat a**e into the air.

 

OK so being a genius and armed with all the info from the internet I proceeded to go searching for an FTF. Well a couple of TIF's and several visits to different schools later here is a summary of what I found. There will be no names and no locations except for the one I finally decided on. Remember I was 127 kgs. I was willing to travel as far as I needed to get what I wanted. And I was willing to pay a fair market rate, although how I intended to calculate what that was with all my amazing lack of knowledge is still beyond me.

 

So to the TIF's and visits to FTF's. This really was probably the hardest part of learning to fly. From my background, SAFETY was without doubt my highest priority.

 

Secondly I love dogs, which means I am a social animal so atmosphere was my second priority.

 

Third at 127 kgs I had to fit in the plane.

 

Fourth it it wasn't going to be fun I wasn't going to stick it out most likely.

 

And lastly was a fair price and a time frame that fitted me. I was on a time limit at first but that fell away mid training and now I am certain that I shall never stop learning so a time frame was probably really the silliest thing that I considered.

 

I visited several schools over a large area. Below are some of my observations.

 

A TIF that in my opinion in hindsight took off with the aircraft well over MTOW. That is based on my estimation of the pilots weight and a fair guess at the amount of fuel on board. Only after much googling after the event did I come to this conclusion.

 

An instructor answering my question about my weight by saying mate if you can get in the seat we can teach you.

 

By this stage I had developed a series of questions that were a test of the FTF's methodology rather than a quest for knowledge. You see I had decided that there were people out there who just wanted my money.

 

An FTF that as I was walking towards their hanger a student(well I assume it was a student) who stormed past me shouting over their shoulder, I am paying you to teach me not to abuse me. Stick your bl**dy flying school.

 

You get the drift there were others that seemed to have the skills and methodology but not the atmosphere and vice versa.

 

Then I rode into CRA. I was on my bike dressed to ride and happened past the airfield so thought I would stop in. As it happens I probably picked the perfect day to drop in. So my initial question/test drew what to me was the perfect answer.

 

Q. I am 125kgs (i had lost a bit by now) can you teach me to fly?

 

A. From the bloke sitting casually in the corner who turned out to be the CFI, pointed out the window, in the plane with full tanks, that one over there with half tanks, this one with 30 litres, and the rest forget it. With that he wandered off to do a lesson or something.

 

The rest of the people were so welcoming showing me the planes sitting me in them all basically trying them on for size. Can you picture a 125 kg man in full bike gear and boots trying to fit into a couple of Jabs and the Foxbat. Well surprisingly the Foxbat did fit and not only that but she was the one that apparently could take me the CFI and a tank full of fuel.

 

Like I guess all students at this stage I wanted to know how long it would take to learn and how much. In hindsight they were the two silliest question that I think I asked. Looking back now the numbers in the book simply do not matter. they are just that. Numbers in a book. What matters is the quality of instruction.

 

The safety culture.

 

The variety of instructors as well as availability.

 

The availability of the aircraft as well as variety which did not become important to me until later.

 

The airfield and neighbouring airfields.

 

Were they able to work in with my timeframe. Was my timeframe realistic?

 

I can give you the figures straight from my log book but really they do not matter. What took me hours to master may take someone else minutes. On the other hand what took me minutes may take someone else hours.

 

OK so a summary.

 

My Solo came up in three weeks

 

My Pilots certificate in 8 weeks of which the school was closed for a couple of weeks.

 

My Pax endo a week later.

 

And my Xcountry a further 6 weeks of which the plane was off the road for 3 weeks.

 

During this period I was flying 3 to 4 days a week with 2 flights/lessons on most days. Luckily or then maybe not, this was in South East Qld during the best time of year. As with all things there are positives and negatives.

 

The positives of getting in and getting it done.

 

I got into training/study mode very quickly and as a result found that revision time from one lesson to the next was minimal. I became very comfortable with the people and the equipment very quickly and as a result was confident in my training and learning. I got to know the airfield and the traffic patterns fairly well.

 

The negatives

 

I am still finding some of these. I thought that I had cross wind landings sorted. We did the theory and the practical, however there is was not that much wind during my training. I saw more wind in the last couple of weeks in the drifter than during my whole training.

 

I solo'd on a runway that I had never used before that day. During my test thanks to a simulated engine failure I used that runway for only the second time on a very windy downwind no engine forced landing. That was fun not. But then I guess if the fan stops it is not going to ask you if this would be a suitable spot for it to happen.

 

So YCAB for training. 4 runways. 12 and 30. 06 and 24 all grass with 30 being right hand circuits and probably about 25% of flying days using 30 so a fair variety. The two neighbouring airfields Caloundra and Redcliffe are both sealed so a bit of extra experience there. The training areas around Bribie island and the Glasshouse Mountains, it can't get much better than that. And we have some higher altitude fields within range during the Navs to give a feel for the effect of that as well.

 

In summary I feel that I received excellent value for money in a safe and friendly environment and am glad that I chose to learn where I did. To follow up they have a good range of aircraft to fly and for continuing training. Cost in Dollars per hour I think was invaluable but to put a figure on it from $170 to $200 depending on aircraft.

 

What would I do differently if I had the chance to do it all over again? I would probably chose to learn in a tailwheel. When I started I didn't even know what that was and certainly had no idea that it would be more difficult than a nose wheel. Remember I picked the Foxbat because it fitted me.

Fantastic post mate! I really do appreciate that. I really do know from my professional background that I will be asking all the wrong questions and just really dont know what I just dont know yet. I am going in blind so find it hard to assess the real value because of it. I have had glowing reports of guys that charge $150 and a lot of recommendations for the $250 plus guys. I think it will just be trial and error from here on in, as with you I usually assess by the generalised approach and perceived attention to detail, as I know nothing I would think I was getting a meticulous education regardless, as I don't have a decent benchmark or gold standard. I am happy that I have asked the wrong questions (sorry for the frustration though guys) as economics is still one facet of real value (especially trying to justify it to my finance minister) . As stated I dont know what I dont know so am starting with a familiar benchmark($) as didn't want to pay 75% more just for a shiny plane and decent marketing (seems to happen in all professions). In getting that out of the way I can move towards assessing other perhaps more important facets such as institutionalised safety culture, variety and social aspects. Unfortunately some things can be told and we can hear and and understand them cognitively yet without the experience it is very hard to give certain factors the same weighting as someone that has already been through it..... though I am trying.....it does make a FNG like me consider things that were formerly not even on the radar and I thank you greatly for it :-)

 

 

[robinsm]

If someone tried to charge me $250/hr for uiltralight flight lessons, I would run so fast in the opposite direction grass would burn. Blatant rip off.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

If someone tried to charge me $250/hr for uiltralight flight lessons, I would run so fast in the opposite direction grass would burn. Blatant rip off.

Top of the range, late model European recreational aircraft, good hangar, good insurance, good instructor (paid a fair rate), well maintained airfield with cross strip close to major population centre, aircraft well maintained by good L2/LAME (paid a fair rate), good school facilities, available 7 days a week. Maybe not a rip off.

 

Pay the same rate for an old Jabiru at a country airport with one strip, volunteer instructor/L2, tin shed classroom, and yes, a rip off.

 

It may not suit all, but to just say it's a blatant rip off, and all that implies, is a bit harsh.

 

(And no I don't own a flying school)

 

 

[robinsm]

If you can afford to pay $250/hr then good luck to you. I would be considering travelling and staying somewhere else on the difference between 250 and a less expensive school. Learn on an older machine and then convert. Cost a lot less.

 

Cost locally in the area of 140 - 150hr, no tin shed for an office and classroom (proper facilities, office and training room in a proper hanger, run as a proper business by a competent instructor and pilot examiner.) The option is there to train on a more expensive aircraft if you require but you have the choice. May help to price a bulk residential course and training over the school/business holidays with the change from the 250. Cheers.