Dishonesty in aviation

[stevron]

Is there any honest people left in aviation or have they Retired. For 3 years I have been trying to enjoy aviation and all I get feed is rubbish. Some aviation organisations would not survive in the real world given the poor workmanship and the rubbish they offer.

 

Our Aviation industry is over governed to piont that it protects unscrupulous operators. We the aviators are treated to over priced under performing people, selling, building and maintaining our air craft. If this industry was dealing with the larger general public the government would have held an public inquiry. I have over 30 years in the motor industry and I can tell you - the motor industry would not get away with the rubbish that the aviation industry seems able offer . Once aviation people have sat an exam and received a piece of paper they are untouchable and because of the piece of paper we are expected to believe what these people say and charge . It seems there is no recourse . Our regulators are full of self importance and seem to be unable do anything accept to offer some BS spin to the public. This is how I feel.

 

 

[dazza 38]

There are dishonest people in every industry. Just the dept varies.

 

 

[ctfarmer]

The answer to your first question is Yes.

 

 

[503]

"Larger "may help

 

 

[Camel]

Yes Stevron, my sentiments exactly, that is why I love RAA as I do my own maintenance, I owned a GA plane for many years and would never own a GA plane again for the reasons you mention. I'm a Motor mechanic and have owned buses,trucks and earthmoving equipment and five aircraft.

 

Honest LAME's are hard to find but I have dealt with a couple ! CASA, well they are only helpful if you force them by submitting loads of paperwork.

 

Do not allow RAA to loose any of its privileges as they are precious.

 

 

[Downunder]

You need to have a beer with Storchy, Stevron.....

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I don't know why anyone would think someone who had just paid $100,000 (semantics) for 300kgs of aluminium and fiberglass would be a soft touch.

 

 

[Marty_d]

I don't know why anyone would think someone who had just paid $100,000 (semantics) for 300kgs of aluminium and fiberglass would be a soft touch.

Well a quarter of that is for the 80kg chunk of metal that turns the fan - talking of which, when's this engine of yours on the market???

 

 

[Riley]

Is there any honest people left in aviation or have they Retired. For 3 years I have been trying to enjoy aviation and all I get feed is rubbish. Some aviation organisations would not survive in the real world given the poor workmanship and the rubbish they offer.Our Aviation industry is over governed to piont that it protects unscrupulous operators. We the aviators are treated to over priced under performing people, selling, building and maintaining our air craft. If this industry was dealing with the larger general public the government would have held an public inquiry. I have over 30 years in the motor industry and I can tell you - the motor industry would not get away with the rubbish that the aviation industry seems able offer . Once aviation people have sat an exam and received a piece of paper they are untouchable and because of the piece of paper we are expected to believe what these people say and charge . It seems there is no recourse . Our regulators are full of self importance and seem to be unable do anything accept to offer some BS spin to the public. This is how I feel.

Assuming that your ire is aimed at both GA and RAA, I'd be interested to learn just what it was that got you 'arced up' Stevron. I agree there are a lot of grey, manipulatible areas along with some sales & service people sailing 'close to the wind' in our sport but surely the dodgy element isn't gaining on the good? As Camel states, we have it pretty good with RAA's own-maintenance as long as we have access to a 'tame' L2. Despite that I've had major problems with RAA administration over the years (who didn't in the rough days?) I've only run across two devious and/or incompetant L2's in fiteen years so will hope that it is GA that earned the bulk of your exasperation. cheers Riley

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Stevron,

 

I don't know wether your aircraft is GA rego or RAAus but I'll assume it could be either and cover both bases.

 

I have worked and continue to work as a GA engineer and also as an RAAus unlimited Level 2 maintainer in this country over many years.

 

Additionally I worked for several years in the US under the FAA system, holding an A&P license ( Airframe- Powerplant ) license working on GA aircraft large and small, and also ULs.

 

The current poor condition of Australia's maintenance facilities and workshops is a direct result of CASA incompetence, and constant over- regulation. Frankly I'm amazed that we have any left at all.

 

The continuing an ongoing financial costs to those who wish to provide much needed GA maintenance and keep a shop open, would surprise most if they could see the actual figurers.

 

Insurance and the minimising of potential litigation alone is huge ongoing cost.

 

Despite all this, we still have some very poor below acceptable standards maintainers around.

 

These are fairly easily spotted as they are usually the ones offering deals well below what other more reputable shops do, and are often also the ones who's hangars are sourrounded by unfinished aircraft, because their costings are unrealistic in the first place.

 

You best option is word of mouth. Talk to other people and compare other person experiences, the 'good' maintainer will become apparent but may not necessarily be the cheapest.

 

If you want experienced quality work be prepared to pay for their time.

 

In respect to the L2 situation, our RAAus tech manager Darren Barnfield is currently overseeing a program to clean up the some 900 L2 holders previously issued. Hopefully this will overtime improve the L2 gene pool to the benefit of all. Get to know all the L2 maintainers in your area, most tend to prefer I specialise on specific types or engines. Beware the one who knows it all and can do anything.

 

There are few GA maintenance shops in my experience who also offer suitable and fully knowledgable L2 /912 type work. They are however more than happy to increase their level of knowledge at GA rates, at your expense.

 

Once again word of mouth and talking to other pilots should point you to the component maintainers. It's alway a case of buyer beware I 'm afraid.

 

 

[facthunter]

IF you compare the rates you pay a qualified shop to work on your plane, they may often be cheaper that what you pay for an apprentice to cross thread your drain plug and put the wrong oil in your BMW Merc etc. My favourite gripe is overtightening everything. Get the steroids off the gorilla and use a tension wrench or have a bit of feel.. Nev

 

 

[Thruster87]

I friend [small GA repair shop ] had a CASA audit the other week and they wanted to see the release notes and batch numbers for the loctite joining compounds and the star/lock washers he was using. Also calibration date for torque wrenches and to note serial number of torque wrenches used for each job.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

I was charged $325 by a LAME to fix a puncture in a nose wheel. The aircraft was parked outside his shop. I could have bought a new wheel, tyre and tube for that. My fault? Should have asked for an estimate. I was thinking $50 at your local garage would have been a bit rich. Once bitten . . . .

 

 

[Downunder]

I don't know why anyone would think someone who had just paid $100,000 (semantics) for 300kgs of aluminium and fiberglass would be a soft touch.

Come on Bex. You really need to get over the fact that an aircraft is more than the sum of it's parts.....

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I was charged $325 by a LAME to fix a puncture in a nose wheel. The aircraft was parked outside his shop. I could have bought a new wheel, tyre and tube for that. My fault? Should have asked for an estimate. I was thinking $50 at your local garage would have been a bit rich. Once bitten . . . .

the LAME knows you'll never come back so he only gets one shot at you, may as well make it pay.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Come on Bex. You really need to get over the fact that an aircraft is more than the sum of it's parts.....

Indeed this is true and I would pay the stupid, absurd rip off price for a Ferrari 458 tomorrow without blinking knowing a pineapple is being inserted firmly into the nether regions (I even have a large chunk of cash ready to go for a 1960's piece of rubbish that rarely comes on the market, an Alpine Renault A110 which in reality isn't worth $500).

 

However I seem to be having trouble finding the Toyota Corollas and Hyundai I30s of aviation.

 

 

[Downunder]

Perhaps like boats and sports cars, aircraft are a WANT and not a NEED. Even marginal income earners need a car.....hence the hyundai...

 

 

[Keith Page]

I was charged $325 by a LAME to fix a puncture in a nose wheel. The aircraft was parked outside his shop. I could have bought a new wheel, tyre and tube for that. My fault? Should have asked for an estimate. I was thinking $50 at your local garage would have been a bit rich. Once bitten . . . .

Yes Don

Some are not that smart in the marketing world. One has not to be that bright to work it out you know.

 

There is a little ditty which cover it:-" You can shear a sheep many times however you can only skin him once".

 

Regards

 

Keith Page.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

but the LAME is working on the principle that Don won't likely ever be back at the airport, so make hay while the sun shines

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Perhaps like boats and sports cars, aircraft are a WANT and not a NEED. Even marginal income earners need a car.....hence the hyundai...

I have no reason to disagree with this either, 2 out of 2, but the aviation industry is obviously aware of that "WANT" desire and hence keep a cool store room out back full of boxes of pineapples ....

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

As someone who has sat on the side of a runway away from home fixing a puncture in a J230 where you have to split the hub to get to the tube, and knowing that it was, for that first time experience nearly 3hours of work and joy trying to do the work and not "find" too many 3 corner jacks with your knees/feet etc I would have at that stage paid $325 without blinking an eye....

 

Of course, as I learnt at the time, I now have a puncture repair kit in the aircraft, and for a J230 that includes talcum powder to try and prevent the pinching of the tubes by the hub half's, and appropriate tyre levers to break beads etc and 2 longer temporary bolts that can be used to pull the halves close enough that the proper bolts can have enough threads protruding to start the nuts in thre other 2 holes....and spare nuts and spare washers and spare bolts cause they are a bastard to find if they get lost in the grass etc when dis/assembling when you are west of blackstump.

 

I also have spare brake pads because you have to muck with them to get the hubs on and off the axles and they are also a joy to do away from home...and of course you need the multiple spanners to adjust the brakes back to some semblance of working....

 

Also know from experience that green goo is pretty well useless in aircraft tyres, it doesn't work and massively unbalances the wheels....

 

but I digress....

 

Andy

 

(oops forgot to say I have 10 ply tyres which makes the job of joining the hub halves back together that much harder...probably longer bolts not required for the original 6ply's) )

 

 

[Keith Page]

but the LAME is working on the principle that Don won't likely ever be back at the airport, so make hay while the sun shines

The other marketing point:- "Everyone has friends and one wants their business too".

Would Don mention good things about this LAME?

 

So what would all of Don's friends and their friends do now.

 

Regards

 

KP.

 

 

[poteroo]

I think this thread has a more specific agenda, and is soon going to get a little too close-to-the-bone. Mods take note!

 

You only need to look into consumer complaints on a broader scale to see that there are many sharp practices in the retail world. Aviation is but a small part of that.

 

In the tourism industry there is a saying: if a customer has a good experience - they tell a friend, but if they suffer a bad experience - they tell 9 others.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Downunder]

Or puts it on a forum and tells 900 others......

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

In defence of the LAME...he has to pay rent and insurance on his hangar base, he can't just work out of his ute on the field like an L2. He must pay a fee every year to keep his licenses and ratings current.

 

When he does any job, even a lowley tire change he has to compile a work package and list all who worked on the aircraft, any parts that may have been used down to every nut and washer, and record the GRN ( goods record number) of all those parts, all details of the aircraft, and this all has to be filed and kept to conform to CASA regs. He also has to make sure he is qualified and appropriately licensed to work on your aircraft type.

 

He must make sure his hangar operators insurance policy covers him working on your aircraft should there be any resulting lawsuits.

 

Additionally he is also responsible when returning an aircraft to service ( which he is doing by signing your logbook) that all applicable ADs are in place as required on that aircraft. If you crash and die on your departure it all comes back to him as the last signatory in the log book. And last but not least he has to make an entry in your logbook for work performed....some LAMES charge a flat $100 for this service alone.

 

Oh and all these paper records have to be stored somewhere for at least 5 years and must be produced for checking at anytime during a CASA audit when requested.

 

Sort of makes that $325 bucks look like good value doesn't it ?.......