Dishonesty in aviation

[Guest ozzie]

Sometimes it pays to hire.

 

I'd just change that inner tube myself and keep my mouth shut.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Sort of makes that $325 bucks look like good value doesn't it ?.......

No, $325 is still too much, it however highlights that the system that caused it to be $325 is somewhat faulty.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

I've got no time for any one who does unprofessional work on an aircraft. Also got no time for an owner who wants the LAME to take short cuts that could cost him or his passengers their lives and the LAME his licence. It seems some pilots can afford to own an aircraft but not afford to maintain one legally. $325 for a tyre repair sounds a lot. I would have thought one hour labor and the cost of the tube. Cheaper if you can borrow the jack and take the tyre off yourself at most places.

 

Get the hourly rate for a mechanic to work on your Toyota and then get the same for most LAMEs. I'll bet the LAME rate is very competitive and as Maj has said above the bulls*it that they have to put up with from the regulator would drive most people insane. A LAME mate of mine says that most of his clients expect a 24/7 service and will call him at all hours. Try contacting your doctor after hours!

 

RAAus or Experimental allows owners to work on their own aircraft but be aware of your own ability and don't undervalue your life and that of your friends and family.

 

 

[Geoff13]

A person is entitled to charge for their experience and facilities. They should also be entitled to charge for the responsibility they have to provide a safe airplane. Do I think you have been overcharged? Yes I do. Do I begrudge the guy the right to charge that. No I don't. He knows his expenses and what he can charge.

 

I have many times tried to price myself out of jobs, as a polite way of saying no thanks I don't want to do that. Sometimes it backfires, but when it does I sure as hell get well paid for my time.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Do I begrudge the guy the right to charge that. No I don't. He knows his expenses and what he can charge.

It may well be different as there is bound to be more transient clients in aviation, but in my automotive mechanical workshops, I certainly gave consideration to the 'getting the client to return for more work' factor when billing them for smaller, on the spot jobs.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

bex, $325 in the pocket is better than $325 in someone else's pocket.

 

I agree gouging just creates and reinforces the notion that aviation is only for the rich...

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

In respect to the L2 situation, our RAAus tech manager Darren Barnfield is currently overseeing a program to clean up the some 900 L2 holders previously issued.

Yeah, cull them with more regulation that'll fix everything and lower the hourly rate we pay for sure /sarc. CASA will advise how to do this, they're good at such programs (or pogroms).

 

How about first providing data on the damage these 'cowboy' L2's have supposedly done including number of actual incidents or accidents caused.

 

 

[dazza 38]

IF you compare the rates you pay a qualified shop to work on your plane, they may often be cheaper that what you pay for an apprentice to cross thread your drain plug and put the wrong oil in your BMW Merc etc. My favourite gripe is overtightening everything. Get the steroids off the gorilla and use a tension wrench or have a bit of feel.. Nev

Nothing jacks me off more than a nut or bolt over tightened.

 

 

[old man emu]

I friend [small GA repair shop ] had a CASA audit the other week and they wanted to see the release notes and batch numbers for the loctite joining compounds and the star/lock washers he was using. Also calibration date for torque wrenches and to note serial number of torque wrenches used for each job.

Don't think that these CASA auditors are all knowing. The majority are ex-RAAF and have no insight into the private sector world. I'd be surprised if a maintenance record for a RAAF aircraft would list batch numbers for common jointing compounds.

 

When I was working for a small GA maintenance facility, I was recording tracking details for minutiae like washers. However, since these things were simply kept in storage trays in the workshop and were of free issue, I couldn't go to the tray and pick out a washer and be able to provide full traceability. The best I could say was that on a certain date I put 100 of these washers into the tray from a bag whose allocated ID number indicated that the bag had been obtained from so-and-so supplier on Invoice Number dada which also contained the supplier's traceabilty record.

 

The correct way to audit parts traceability is to determine if there is a procedure to record traceability details and if so, can items affecting aircraft safety be traced back to manufacturer. It is clear that the CASA "auditors" have no idea about how to carry out a systems audit. And I do have qualifications and training in that area.

 

As to recording calibrations dates for torque wrenches and other measuring equipment, that is standard practice. However, if a small shop only has one torque wrench and one leak down tester, it's pretty obvious which tools have been use to do a job. More pedantism for pedantism's sake.

 

I once heard a story that one of these CASA whizz kids wanted to know when the plumb bob used during weight-and-balance measurements had last been calibrated. As yet the Australian Standard for plumb bob calibration has not been located.

 

If you run a CASA approved workshop, it might be worthwhile going up to your local pharmacy and buying a nit comb which you can loan to the CASA auditor as a sign of your full cooperation in the auditing process.

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

The latest up this way is expiry dates on grease, if you can believe that stupidity. How you actually manage to write anything on a grease gun is beyond me !...and oh ..there have been so many accidents caused by expired grease over the years haven't there ?...

 

At Air Whitsunday it was not uncommon to go through 6-8 grease cartridges a day when servicing the Caravans on Wipline 8000 amphib floats.

 

 

[Keith Page]

How can an organisation gane respect when they engineer stupidity like that. Grease I am shaking my head.

 

There is one more ------ the mining industry is going over board with their paper. The cost of committing paper work before and during extraction is beyond ridiculous and they moaning that costs are getting to big.

 

The big thing ------- there is planned maintenance you know nothing breaks, stops, dies and etc. etc. between planned maintenance just wonderful everything just keeps going.

 

Now the laugh of the day say for example a dozer dies it is carted into the work shop and get brought back to life and then in a days time it has it planned PM

 

 

[geoffreywh]

How could anyone expect a qualified workshop for $50 per hour? My Merc guy is $108.. I was charging $65 per hour when I closed my shop. 10 years ago...(and I still found it difficult to make a quid .Due to gigantic overheads I must add)

 

 

[facthunter]

Greases and fluids do time expire, but a lot of the ones used in Airlines are pretty sophisticated having to operate at temps below minus 55 degrees C. The thing is to have the appropriate system operating where it is critical and something more realistic in normal maintenance situations where a rapid rate of usage guarantees the stock is still fresh.

 

With regard to the nosewheel being too expensive, perhaps there was something else done like check for AD's or corrosion or replace seals etc involved.

 

I have no doubt from what I hear that working in Aviation in this country today you have a lot of people who are bigger on theory than having practical knowledge. Someone will insist that a certain clause appears in a document that the next person who inspects said document will want removed. After a while you don't even argue. You just change it as the fools want. and keep going . Nev

 

 

[terryc]

In defence of the LAME...he has to pay rent and insurance on his hangar base, he can't just work out of his ute on the field like an L2. He must pay a fee every year to keep his licenses and ratings current.When he does any job, even a lowley tire change he has to compile a work package and list all who worked on the aircraft, any parts that may have been used down to every nut and washer, and record the GRN ( goods record number) of all those parts, all details of the aircraft, and this all has to be filed and kept to conform to CASA regs. He also has to make sure he is qualified and appropriately licensed to work on your aircraft type.

He must make sure his hangar operators insurance policy covers him working on your aircraft should there be any resulting lawsuits.

 

Additionally he is also responsible when returning an aircraft to service ( which he is doing by signing your logbook) that all applicable ADs are in place as required on that aircraft. If you crash and die on your departure it all comes back to him as the last signatory in the log book. And last but not least he has to make an entry in your logbook for work performed....some LAMES charge a flat $100 for this service alone.

 

Oh and all these paper records have to be stored somewhere for at least 5 years and must be produced for checking at anytime during a CASA audit when requested.

 

Sort of makes that $325 bucks look like good value doesn't it ?.......

no it doesn't it's thief and no amount of pretending will change that

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

As we are on a maintenance- related subject ...have all you Rotax owners/operators logged onto Rotaxowners.com...? this is a great free site for the Rotax owner and far better and quicker to access than even the Rotax BRP company website. Easily access any maintenance, service or parts manuals and all SBs and SLs. Lots of additional links available also. You can also log your Engine S/no with them and they will automatically send an Email whenever something new comes out that affects your particular engine. A great site for the owner and maintainer.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

no it doesn't it's thief and no amount of pretending will change that[/QUTerry's......Terryc, Next time your at your local Auto repair shop just have a look at the hourly rate they charge...then compare it to what the average L2 or LAME/ AME charge......

[Kyle Communications]

Stevron hasn't come back with the issue yet....why not?...you can't just put a statement out there like that and not qualify it

 

 

[Powerin]

If it's any consolation, agricultural mechanics are charged out at about $120/hr these days (although the mechanics themselves are lucky to see a third of that). $325 for a tyre repair is a rip-off, but then I don't see many BMWs parked in front of aviation or agricultural service facilities. I don't get the feeling many are making big bucks.

 

 

[Oscar]

I know a number of excellent LAMES and L2's, but a bad operator is bad news. We recently visited the RAA Tech. Assistant Manager with photo evidence of work done by a (very well-known!) L2 on our aircraft and the log-book entries associated with that, for advice as to how RAA wanted that handled. Suffice it to say that Jared was appalled and required us to submit a detailed Defect Report - it will take several pages - but RAA has also recognised that the current RAA aircraft Log book does not meet standards for evidence and needs an upgrade.

 

Since that work was done prior to our ownership of this aircraft, I have no idea of at what cost - but work was signed off by an L2 that was, quite simply, potentially fatally dangerous. A rudder locked over on one extent is an unrecoverable situation. The main U/C leg bolts potentially failing because they were of incorrect length and used when new should have been installed (by the Maintenance requirements) when changing from a standard to 'heavy duty' main legs, is probably not potentially fatal, just potentially damn expensive.

 

 

[old man emu]

The latest up this way is expiry dates on grease, if you can believe that stupidity. At Air Whitsunday it was not uncommon to go through 6-8 grease cartridges a day when servicing the Caravans on Wipline 8000 amphib floats.

 

Greases and fluids do time expire, but a lot of the ones used in Airlines are pretty sophisticated having to operate at temps below minus 55 degrees C. I have no doubt from what I hear that working in Aviation in this country today you have a lot of people who are bigger on theory than having practical knowledge. Someone will insist that a certain clause appears in a document that the next person who inspects said document will want removed. After a while you don't even argue. You just change it as the fools want. and keep going . Nev

Nev, your comment about expiry dates is true, but with respect to the discussion of CASA Cloud LaLa Land audits being carried out with common sense, I doubt if Air Whitsunday would ever operate where the OAT was below zero. I bet most of their operations are carried out with an OAT above 20C., so the really fancy greases are probably unheard of. I would imagine that the greasing is done more to provide waterproofing than lubrication.

 

The other thing to consider is where grease is used on the types of aircraft we use. I know that washing and repacking wheel bearings was standard practice with the mob I worked for. The only other places that needed regular lubrication were door locks and door hinges. A silicone spray lubricant was used in those circumstances.

 

The very worst thing about these CASA audits is that the auditors never want to give out full marks. Nobody gets 100%, so they look up something that is irrelevant and hunt it down so that the organisation being audited can me marked as less than perfect. For the times between audits, they put no time into coming around to workshops to discuss maintenance issues to see if trends are developing. (For example, engine bolt shearing in Jabiru engines), or to see if any particular make or model is throwing up faults due to age.

 

The best thing that could be done to improve aircraft maintenance is to demand that CASA safety staff prove that they have practical, private industry experience in the area they are supervising. That will get rid of the ex-RAAF Remove and Replace maintenance engineers and the career bureaucrats and maybe get some common sense into CASA activities.

 

OME

 

 

[Happyflyer]

OME, I'm guessing you are not ex RAAF. I'd love to know why members of the RAAF are so low in your esteem. Just because someone is ex RAAF does not make them incompetent or unable to do a job outside the RAAF.

 

In my state there are no ex RAAF airworthiness inspectors. I have not heard anything good about the ones we have. They are all ex industry and are now pinging people for doing the same things they did when they worked for a living. They do exactly as you say in your post. So perhaps the problem with airworthiness inspectors is not that they are ex RAAF but that they have been sucked into the CASA culture.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

OME, I'm guessing you are not ex RAAF. I'd love to know why members of the RAAF are so low in your esteem. Just because someone is ex RAAF does not make them incompetent or unable to do a job outside the RAAF.In my state there are no ex RAAF airworthiness inspectors. I have not heard anything good about the ones we have. They are all ex industry and are now pinging people for doing the same things they did when they worked for a living. They do exactly as you say in your post. So perhaps the problem with airworthiness inspectors is not that they are ex RAAF but that they have been sucked into the CASA culture.

We have problems up here with ex- army Majors who have not swung a tool themselves and have seen nothing but helicopters., with supposably expired grease !.....

 

 

[facthunter]

The scene is not good All you need is people who have been involved in the real world of running a company, and getting things to work Not whackos who look for some time expired grease or spring washers that were purchased a fair while ago. Nev

 

 

[DonRamsay]

Just to clarify a few things.

 

Firstly, our aircraft was based at that airport and tied down just outside the LAMEs workshop.

 

Secondly, it was my fault for not asking for even an estimate for the work.

 

However, a tradesman with a desire to treat his customers well would not repair something if the repair was more expensive than a new replacement. A new tyre and tube less than $150?

 

Thirdly, I have never been back and never will go back to that LAME. Ever.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

All you need is people who have been involved in the real world of running a company, and getting things to work

Why the hell would I lower my income to go work for an organisation like that.

 

And there you have the problem, example; Prime Ministers should be on a couple of million a year to attract the right people (they get it one way or another anyway so lets just be transparent about it)