Jabiru limitations

[motzartmerv]

Exactly!!!!

 

 

[jetjr]

So this has nothing to do with actual safety, but percieved safety?

 

Anyone can make a structured risk assessment for dangerous activity and implement measures to minimize.

 

Pretty standard workplace practice

 

As far as 15 yo girl "augering in" Id suggest youd deserve some family attention as they should be trained adequayely to avoid this outcome.

 

Also with there NEVER have been a fatality due to Jabiru engine failure its a pretty slim risk youll end up in legal issues with family

 

Childish and inflamatory language doesnt help, youve accused me of that recently

 

As far as accepting whatever the regulator throws at you, it is ultimately your choice how to maintain and operate your aircraft. Blindly following manufacturer or regulator advice could also be seen as negligent if it has been shown to be incorrect.

 

A far as numbers goes, i fear we do have the same details CASA does and we agree it's at best pretty thin.

 

 

[gandalph]

Oscar, please don't wish CASA looking at Rotax on us. The issue here is CASA's out of proportion reaction to the "jabiru problem". One of the reasons we all kicked back against their illogical response is because following this example there is no limit to the harm that they could do to light aviation.

Well Don, I think that consequence was not foreseen by folk when they let the genie out of the bottle. As Methusala noted earlier, that was the thin edge of the wedge Rec Aviation, Jabiru first - whose next?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

45 in a year? Thin ?

 

I'm not gunna entertain tit for tat with you again jet. Ic. Expressed my concerns as an operator, they don't relate to you so let's agree to comment on things that effect us ok?

 

 

[turboplanner]

It IS Christmas Motz.

 

 

[Oscar]

Oscar, please don't wish CASA looking at Rotax on us. The issue here is CASA's out of proportion reaction to the "jabiru problem". One of the reasons we all kicked back against their illogical response is because following this example there is no limit to the harm that they could do to light aviation.

Don - I do NOT want CASA to look at Rotax - that was not my intent at all. But you can see the rationale here: if someone makes a legal challenge against this - and there is a pretty high likelihood that someone will (remember Jabiru is legally represented by Spencer Ferrier, and a more knowledgeable of aviation matters and very capable legal counsel in this sphere you could not find), the question of 'what is an acceptable rate of failure' will arise. Since the ATSB figures ( the only ones we have to work on at the moment) conclusively demonstrate that the rate of Jabiru failures had fallen between 2012 and 2013 while Rotax figures had risen by a disproportionate amount, there is going to be almost no chance that a legal challenge will refer to those figures and demand of CASA why Jabiru had been singled out.

 

Once the fire has been lit, it burns anybody who is too close. The simple implication here, is that CASA has made a determination that the Jabiru failure rate is unacceptable while the Rotax (and any other engines used in recreational aircraft, including those that may have a greater failure rate than Jabiru engines, for that matter) is OK. Do you really think that is going to wash in a Court?

 

The CASA action is so full of both legal and regulatory compliance holes it would be shot to pieces in a Court challenge ( CASA has wildly exceeded the terms of its regulations here, by the way: neither 19-reg, nor E-LSA and Experimental-VH can, by CASA regulation, be subject to this determination). CASA would be forced to either: unilaterally retract the directive - leaving it totally open to legal action for the consequences of having started it in the first place - OR justify the action and demonstrate equivalence in applying the same standard across the board in respect of any engine used in Recreational / Sport aviation. It's going to be extremely hard for CASA to make a determination that Rotax 'makes the grade' while everybody else does not.

 

If you throw a hand grenade into a pub, you can't be sure that only the infidels will be injured.

 

 

[Camel]

Well Don, I think that consequence was not foreseen by folk when they let the genie out of the bottle. As Methusala noted earlier, that was the thin edge of the wedge Rec Aviation, Jabiru first - whose next?

I think the comment about Jabiru the first is way out of line because there have been others Foxcon, Morgan and Ibis, all of the aircraft I have mentioned I have flown and regard highly. I said it before and I say it again everyone should stamp their feet and tell CASA they have had enough of the ridiculous BS they carry on with, and while your at it tell Rod Stiff to get his head out of the sand and fix the problems, Cammit have but Jabiru don't appear to be interested and the arrogance of Jabiru is real as I have seen it first hand.

 

 

[gandalph]

I think the comment about Jabiru the first is way out of line because there have been others Foxcon, Morgan and Ibis, all of the aircraft I have mentioned I have flown and regard highly. I said it before and I say it again everyone should stamp their feet and tell CASA they have had enough of the ridiculous BS they carry on with, and while your at it tell Rod Stiff to get his head out of the sand and fix the problems, Cammit have but Jabiru don't appear to be interested and the arrogance of Jabiru is real as I have seen it first hand.

Camel, the reference was to the engine not the airframe. With a few notable exceptions, most of the respondents here, even those with an axe to grind with Jabiru, have positive things to say of the Jab airframe.

 

 

[Oscar]

45 in a year? Thin ?I'm not gunna entertain tit for tat with you again jet. Ic. Expressed my concerns as an operator, they don't relate to you so let's agree to comment on things that effect us ok?

Nobody has the actual data for the claimed 45, other than CASA, and it refuses to release the details even to RAA. Draw your own conclusions, but we don't have to believe them until we see the evidence.

 

Merv - I have NO problem with you putting a sign out the front of your FTF that says: 'We don't use no steenkin' Jabirus around here'. I happily accept the Voltaire principle. I also accept that I fly recreational aircraft - an action that is now legally classed as a 'dangerous recreational activity' at least in NSW - at my own risk. I have never taken off solo without the certain knowledge that it was my own decisions and actions in any circumstance that ensured my own safety.

 

You - quite evidently - have your standards for those who rely on your advice and judgement. That's entirely appropriate to your status as a CFI and nobody should have any quibble with that. But by what right do you decide that your standards must apply to everybody else? The CFI's of around 170 FTF's using Jabiru aircraft don't agree with you. That makes you in a minority of less than 1%. As the old saying goes: 'there's me bhoy - the only one in step.'

 

 

[Camel]

Camel, the reference was to the engine not the airframe.

Regard to engine the foxcon terrier was about the engine as it used a subaru with a dual ignition system but no dual plugs, so a debate able argument and that should have been sorted before it was approved.

 

 

[kaz3g]

So, what is the worst of them out there? CASA quote 45 'failures in 2014..Show me ONE engine that had 46?

The figure of 46 is a red herring, Merv, and I'm sure you know it. The only rate of consequence is that per 1000 hours flown as it is simply not possible to produce stats that would be more meaningful such as rates per hours private touring, hours instruction, hours hire.

 

Yes, the rate of failures is way behind Rotax. No, it probably isn't as bad from a reliability aspect as made out. And yes, it should be better.

 

They are a neat little engine and their owners by and large like them, despite their issues. They can certainly be improved as CAMIT has demonstrated and it is clear those two businesses must either amalgamate or fold. I fear the latter.

 

I also fear that, if CASA successfully remove Jabiru from the field, it won't stop there. How easy would it be for CASA to remove the MOU and relevant CAOs and hand all control of RA and other owner-built and sport aircraft to its Sport Aviation section. This would satisfy the first rule of bureaucracies...grow thyself.

 

They have already complied with the second rule...only consult once you have a pre-determined outcome ready to implement.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Camel]

The figure of 46 is a red herring, Merv, and I'm sure you know it. The only rate of consequence is that per 1000 hours flown as it is simply not possible to produce stats that would be more meaningful such as rates per hours private touring, hours instruction, hours hire.Yes, the rate of failures is way behind Rotax. No, it probably isn't as bad from a reliability aspect as made out. And yes, it should be better.

 

They are a neat little engine and their owners by and large like them, despite their issues. They can certainly be improved as CAMIT has demonstrated and it is clear those two businesses must either amalgamate or fold. I fear the latter.

 

I also fear that, if CASA successfully remove Jabiru from the field, it won't stop there. How easy would it be for CASA to remove the MOU and relevant CAOs and hand all control of RA and other owner-built and sport aircraft to its Sport Aviation section. This would satisfy the first rule of bureaucracies...grow thyself.

 

They have already complied with the second rule...only consult once you have a pre-determined outcome ready to implement.

 

Kaz

You are absolutely correct Kaz.

 

I believe that this beat up on RAA needs to stop, yes the jab engine has problems but the CASA method is not going to fix it, it seems Jabiru doesn't listen to Cammit from what I heard, both will fold if this continues as I can't see anyone in their right mind buying a new Jabiru, a friend recently said he wanted to buy one and showing the fiasco to him put him right off, flying schools will need to get other than Jabiru if they want students to fly with them. If jabiru folded it would be an easy fix, just put Cammit and Rotax engines in and your laughing, I hope Jabiru goes broke and Cammit survive long enough for someone to take over.

 

 

[Oscar]

Regard to engine the foxcon terrier was about the engine as it used a subaru with a dual ignition system but no dual plugs, so a debate able argument and that should have been sorted before it was approved.

NO! That goes against the whole philosophy of 19-reg., which is: you build it, you choose the components, and YOU take the risks. Morgan and AAK operate on this basis - do you want them exterminated?

 

 

[Camel]

NO! That goes against the whole philosophy of 19-reg., which is: you build it, you choose the components, and YOU take the risks. Morgan and AAK operate on this basis - do you want them exterminated?

Oscar you are not as smart as you think . DONT TELL ME NO !!! I make no statement without FACTS unlike you !

 

The Sierra built by Morgan Aeroworks was 24 rego, factory built and used for training until the Ferris wheel accident and they took away his certification even though if any other aircraft had hit this structure they would have disentergrated.

 

24 rego ones were then put on 19 reg !! Same with foxcon !!

 

 

[Russ]

My 160C.........is casa type certified, that must include the engine I assume. So they've certified my original engine as operating to set specs, reliability etc, so it must follow, I'm exempt from this hoo ha,........( just a thought )

 

 

[Camel]

My 160C.........is casa type certified, that must include the engine I assume. So they've certified my original engine as operating to set specs, reliability etc, so it must follow, I'm exempt from this hoo ha,........( just a thought )

Your in it with us too.

 

 

[facthunter]

Just call yourself Jabba Roo Ted. Courtesy of the CASA. We're NOT happy, till you're not happy. Nev

 

 

[Russ]

Your in it with us too.

So....my 160c is no longer certified ??

 

 

[facthunter]

Able to be covered by the proclamation. Being certified probably makes it more likely because of the implication of responsibility to users.. Nev

 

 

[dsam]

Anyone have a valid legal opinion about whether a Class Action against CASA would be viable and/or advisable?

 

 

[facthunter]

Those with valid legal opinions would welcome anyone taking that action. You are perfectly entitled to enrichen our legal fraternity.

 

On a more sensible note. They (CASA) have almost unlimited financial resources to take people to court, and will have deep pockets when defending any action.

 

Those losing money may seek to enquire whether someone will take it on with a no win no fee basis but you may not get a lot at the end . You may be able to put a writ on them. IF you are a member of AOPA ask them . This is what they are there for. Nev

 

 

[Oscar]

You are absolutely correct Kaz.I believe that this beat up on RAA needs to stop, yes the jab engine has problems but the CASA method is not going to fix it, it seems Jabiru doesn't listen to Cammit from what I heard, both will fold if this continues as I can't see anyone in their right mind buying a new Jabiru, a friend recently said he wanted to buy one and showing the fiasco to him put him right off, flying schools will need to get other than Jabiru if they want students to fly with them. If jabiru folded it would be an easy fix, just put Cammit and Rotax engines in and your laughing, I hope Jabiru goes broke and Cammit survive long enough for someone to take over.

Let's be realistic here: if Jabiru shuts up shop on Jan 1 2015, CAMit is almost certainly dead in the water as an Australian aero-engine manufacturer. CAMit invested $3.5M on equipment and facilities when Jabiru was ordering 90 engines/month; that dropped to 10 engines/month fairly quickly. Jabiru have stopped their January orders to CAMit.

 

There is no Australian 'White Knight' galloping in to save CAMit. The CASA action has, short of a bleedin' miracle, killed almost the last remnants of the Australian 3-axis and aero-engine manufacturing industry. GippsAreo has gone, Seabird has gone, Brumby has gone. Lightwing continues (I think), but has gone awfully quiet of late. Morgan and AAK are not manufacturers. Gazelles are, thankfully, reducing their numbers by attrition as contributors the the fatals rate, and does not exist anymore. Nestor Slepchev has buggered off, for which much relief.

 

So, for Australian, it's down to a Jabiru - with an international, statistically proven record as a safe airframe - or imports of varying quality and almost invariably a considerably greater price- getting worse as the $Aus depreciates. A Jabiru with a CAMit engine would be brilliant value for money.

 

 

[turboplanner]

dsam, I wish you luck; I can't think of anyone from any industry who has succeeded in the last 25 years.

 

I think CASA may have made a very clever decision.

 

If you want to think about actions, give some thought to your duty of care, and how that has just taken an increase based on the statistics, which despite proclamations here, I suspect are very much in line with what RAA has been publishing over the past few years, plus further unreported cases which may be filtering through to CASA through For Sale Ads, and even engine production figures.

 

 

[Russ]

Way back when, casa signed off the " C " series, as structurely sound, engine etc delivered test figures to agreed values, etc etc, now they are saying it's no longer reliable, so it must follow.....the package ( type C ) is now not certified.

 

( hello mr Camit, I'll pickup my new engine Friday )

 

 

[Oscar]

Way back when, casa signed off the " C " series, as structurely sound, engine etc delivered test figures to agreed values, etc etc, now they are saying it's no longer reliable, so it must follow.....the package ( type C ) is now not certified.( hello mr Camit, I'll pickup my new engine Friday )

The 2200J certification was conducted to JAR-22H standard, observed for compliance by CASA and conducted by Alan Kerr. (The Rotax 912A was also certificated to JAR-22H). The 3300 has never been certificated, but has been certified by Jabiru to ASTM standard.

 

CASA had NO input to the engine certification standards for either the 2200J or the certifying of the 3300 to ASTM standard. In the case of the 2200J, CASA observed compliance with the testing regime; I do not have information as to any CASA involvement in the case of the 3300 ASTM certifying.

 

Neither JAR-22H and (as far as I am aware), the ASTM standard for engines has a 'reliability' review factor. The engines pass the test standard, or do not - that's it. CASA is applying, in effect, a supplementary 'standard' of its own devising. Given that fact, it follows that CASA CAN accept variations to the (ICAO) standards in the domestic situation - which means it COULD accept the substitution of CAMit engines for Jabiru engines if it so chose to do.

 

Now - what we need to do is force CASA to make logical determinations that assist the recreational aviation arena. This fight is not over for any of us yet.