Jabiru limitations

[Oscar]

And so, once again we return to the seemingly interminable denunciation of Jabiru engines 'supported' by regurgitation of strongly-held opinion. Does this advance consideration of the CASA action in terms of the results it may - and probably will - have on recreational aviation? Beyond a certain point (which was reached ages ago) it is on a par with an annoying child banging on a drum for the sole purpose of being annoying (and getting noticed.)

 

For those who do not like Jabiru engines: nobody is forcing you to fly behind one. By all means, carry a placard, get a T-shirt made, whatever, so that whenever you are on an airfield, people will not accidentally or maliciously bundle you into an aircraft with a Jabiru engine and offend your sensibilities by putting you in harm's way by your definition.

 

Make your position as unambiguous as you like - that's your right.

 

Now, how about you extend to those of us who hold a different opinion the same courtesy of allowing us to make our own minds up? Your campaign has many of the overtones of the religious zealotry that insists that everybody must adhere to one particular interpretation of a text / texts that is / are impossible to validate by any objective means.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Oscar

 

My advice, just ignor the so called "committee of 6". They contribute nothing of value and just repeat the same rubbish over and over killing any possibility of informed and intelligent discussion on any thread containing the word Jabiru. Quite often new and interesting information gets posted but is smothered amongst the repeated repeated repeated private agenda of the same few.

 

 

[facthunter]

Sensible and productive outcomes from discussion won't be achieved if the predominant style displayed here on this matter is typical of how we do things.. Nev

 

 

[Teckair]

You don't think they are stupid enough?

I have met Lee Ungermann, Mick Poole and Zane Tully and considered them to be of average intelligence certainly not as stupid as some of the posts on here.

 

 

[dazza 38]

And so, once again we return to the seemingly interminable denunciation of Jabiru engines 'supported' by regurgitation of strongly-held opinion. Does this advance consideration of the CASA action in terms of the results it may - and probably will - have on recreational aviation? Beyond a certain point (which was reached ages ago) it is on a par with an annoying child banging on a drum for the sole purpose of being annoying (and getting noticed.)For those who do not like Jabiru engines: nobody is forcing you to fly behind one. By all means, carry a placard, get a T-shirt made, whatever, so that whenever you are on an airfield, people will not accidentally or maliciously bundle you into an aircraft with a Jabiru engine and offend your sensibilities by putting you in harm's way by your definition.

 

Make your position as unambiguous as you like - that's your right.

 

Now, how about you extend to those of us who hold a different opinion the same courtesy of allowing us to make our own minds up? Your campaign has many of the overtones of the religious zealotry that insists that everybody must adhere to one particular interpretation of a text / texts that is / are impossible to validate by any objective means.

It is not about " nobody is forcing you to fly behind one", it is about preventing somebody on the ground getting killed when the engine goes BANG and the resultant landing doesnt goes exactly to plan.

 

 

[jetjr]

Ill repeat somthing yet to have an answer

 

WHAT DOES ROTAX HAVE TO DO WITH THIS ISSUE?

 

Same question for CASA, comparing brands, on dodgy data, and implementing action is pre school committee stuff

 

Continually arguing how good other individual model of engine is is even more useless

 

More BS Dazza, risk of that is so small as to be ridiculous

 

 

[facthunter]

I've actually NEVER seen a Jabiru engine go BANG. It's not a very meaningful description of a fault. We all know what a jet engine can do when it goes apart uncontained. but Jabs don't do that. How do schools/ individuals who are running their engines with nothing untoward happening, feel when they are just roped into this action, and see statements which summed up mean Jabiru BAD , Hand Grenading, boat anchors, "If you fly in this garbage engine powered machine you are going to die most likely", Over the top statements that are more sensational, and less than useful .. Flying schools maybe have a closer look based on verifiable evidence . but why all the others... IF all engines have to be as good as "perfect Rotax's"(which they aren't) do we only fly Rotax engined planes to be sure that tomorrow WE won't be the next to feel the ire of the Authority, over our choice of power unit. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Rotax is used as a benchmark, many Jabiru fans love pointing out how reliable Jabs are compared to air cooled two stroke engines derived from snowmobiles often owned by people with little or no two stroke tuning experience.

 

I would love to compare late model 912s to late model Jabs, just to see where the problems lie now.

 

 

[jetjr]

So lets use PT turbines as benchmark thenwe would all be walking.

 

Again whats the relevance with rotax, they are a good engine

 

I havent seen anyone in hundreds of pages compare Jabiru with 2 stroke rotax

 

 

[Oscar]

OscarMy advice, just ignor the so called "committee of 6". They contribute nothing of value and just repeat the same rubbish over and over killing any possibility of informed and intelligent discussion on any thread containing the word Jabiru. Quite often new and interesting information gets posted but is smothered amongst the repeated repeated repeated private agenda of the same few.

Frank - I completely agree and have bolded the truly important part of your message, IMHO. The sanctimonious assertion that 'we're here to save your life' from the aforementioned group makes any discussion of the impact of this CASA action into something resembling the Irish Marching Season, that drags back any chance of sensible progress into the tribal warfare zone.

 

The majority of the RAA Board at least is extremely conscious of the possible - even probable - adverse effects that this action threatens for recreational aviation in particular, and the ripple-effect on light aviation generally, especially for remote areas where aviating facilities are often hanging by a thread, with recreational aviation use of such facilities often being the life-support for their continued existence.

 

There is such a thing as 'critical mass' for aviation - once this activity falls below that, then there is a cascading effect. If FTF's that have built up a viable - and safe - operation centred on the use of Jabiru-powered aircraft find themselves being unable to continue in business, any L2s servicing such FTFs will likely follow into business oblivion (at least for that site). The viability of fuel supply to the site drops and may disappear. Visiting aircraft will be forced to choose elsewhere to stop for fuel, service etc. Eventually, the local site owner (usually a Council, now able to turn the airfield into rates income) will cease to support maintenance of the airfield.

 

Rinse, and repeat.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

God, around and around we go.. Its the holidays boys, go flying or something. Complaining about people complaining isnt a good way to spend you holidays!!

 

 

[facthunter]

Some are concerned they can't go flying, in the holidays as they used to, anyhow. It is about the future of flying as well. We don't know where this ends. The process is rightly being questioned,. Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Tell me all about it nev. Lots of people are in the same boat, and we have all questioned the process.

 

The solutions won't be found in forums posts bagging out people's motives or intentions.

 

 

[facthunter]

I think I feel the lack of objectivity Merv. Bit like a combination of " I shot an arrow in the air. It fell to earth I know not where".. and some religious gathering exorcising the devil. Nev

 

 

[Guest Ornis]

Time flies an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana. Jabiru like a sucker.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Sweet, its the riddle me this thread now..I wont use riddles tho.. The time to stop this action is long passed. Too little, been done too late. What we need to do is learn to operate "with the restrictions" and limitations.

 

The people in the game need to get things back on track. Those people, unfortunately, are NOT The RAA, or the board, or 'sanctimonious few, or the Committee of 6.. The ball is now well and truly in Jabs court. Where some would argue, it has been for years.. But now they either play at it, or let it scoot passed. Either way, the owners and operators are now stuck with some pretty sketchy limitations UNTIL something is sorted.

 

Time to suck it up, move on and deal with it.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Have Jabiru left it too late to fix the problem?

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Have Jabiru left it too late to fix the problem?

Obviously........

 

 

[coljones]

I have met Lee Ungermann, Mick Poole and Zane Tully and considered them to be of average intelligence certainly not as stupid as some of the posts on here.

But is average intelligence good enough to do the job?

 

 

[coljones]

Time flies an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana. Jabiru like a sucker.

"Time flies LIKE an arrow, Fruit Flies like a Banana" But I don't get the last bit.

 

 

[geoffreywh]

Dear Oscar, I appreciate your position, but I champion a poor bugger that bought a 230 believing he was getting a certified engine that had to be used as per the POH....He now needs a newer version of his engine, after 500 hours or so. ect ect ect....

 

 

[David Isaac]

It would be good if we could all step back and take an objective view. Can we please put aside the petty cheap shots. Dazz old buddy please stop baiting the biters and the biters, please ignore emotive comments, you only give them power if you respond to them.

 

We all want this thread to be constructive.

 

There are some very good people out there trying to fix things and some very good people caught right in the debacle. Damn shame. The horse has well and truly bolted on this series of problems.

 

I agree with Motz, we now have only one option in the short term and that is to manage the circumstances.

 

Motz is also correct in directing from where the problem originated and if ego and pride is not put aside and some commercial objectivity put in place we may well see the demise of both Jabiru and Camit; these are the commercial realities. If Jabiru folds, we can only hope some one local will buy what is left and the IP and go again and hopefully Camit can survive that long. Arrogance appears to have put us all where we are and arrogance maintained will damage any hope of recovery.

 

 

[gandalph]

Time flies an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana. Jabiru like a sucker.

 

Seems like they're back from the Hall of the Mountain King.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

[ATTACH=full]33410[/ATTACH]

Seems like they're back from the Hall of the Mountain King.

Yes, plenty of Bach to come:)

 

 

[Oscar]

I think I feel the lack of objectivity Merv. Bit like a combination of " I shot an arrow in the air. It fell to earth I know not where".. and some religious gathering exorcising the devil. Nev

Nev, I think the more appropriate phrase may well be 'shoot the wounded'.

 

Michael Moncke's / the RAA Board's communications since the initial CASA proposed action hand grenade was lobbed into the wagon have all been extremely worthy of careful reading and a lot of thought. They have given a very good summation of the broader picture (including placing the statistics into perspective, though that perspective seems to be lost on some people). They have NOT mentioned some of the more dire potential consequences, lest it become a self-fulfilling prophecy, and for that we should all be thankful - but absolutely NOT thoughtless about.

 

The members of the Board who have been intimately associated with preparing responses and information send-outs to members have been putting in huge amounts of their time and energy to this problem, because they can all too easily see the consequences of the train hurtling through the tunnel towards the helpless RAA community tied to the rails. It helps precisely none of us that a few people seem intent on doing nothing but shovelling more coal into the boiler.

 

Let us not muck around with platitudes here: ALL of 'recreational aviation' is, by legal precedent now, considered to be 'a dangerous recreational activity'. See: http://www.cbp.com.au/Publications/Flying-lessons-in-a-single-engine-light-aircraft-

 

In brief - NSW Court of Appeal unanimously dismisses appeal in Campbell v Hay

 

 

The NSW Court of Appeal has confirmed that the injuries sustained by a student flying a light aircraft under the supervision of an experienced flying instructor involved the materialisation of an obvious risk of a dangerous recreational activity.

 

The CASA action has effectively cemented that position from the 'responsible authority' POV. Anybody who thinks a Court will differentiate between 'dangerous' being limited to Jabiru-powered aircraft and aircraft powered by other engines on the basis of a few parts of a percent of reliability statistics, is, not to mince words, a bloody fool. We are ALL tarred with the same legal brush now and the only possible difference between Jabiru-engined aircraft and others is the thickness of the tar. We are ALL 'black' in the eyes of the law.

 

Any operator who thinks that it would be a defence to propose that: 'I didn't send them aloft in a Jabiru-powered aircraft, therefore I contend that it was not dangerous' is simply being stupid. The CASA action is the opening of the Pandora's box.