Jabiru limitations

[motzartmerv]

Perhaps it's the numbers? At your average bankstown or moorabin, would the " worse" engines be represented in any real " threatening numbers?

 

( genuine question)

 

 

[Ultralights]

i remember the new Rolls Royce RB211 engines fitted to the Qantas B747-400's had a miserable reliability rate for their first few years of operations, did casa ever think about restrictions on Qantas aircraft then? so why now are they so hard on Jabiru?

 

 

[facthunter]

The Rotax 912 was considered the ultimate performer about 12 years ago for reliability. Its a "niche " engine, being used in a certain U/L market which we are familiar with. Motors like Pratt and Whitney are generally considered to be the peak performers back in time but, don't do as well as the Rotax engine BUT It's not powering big aeroplanes , as the P&W do or did a while ago. IF you compare ALL Motors against the little Rotax they might come out looking a bit wanting, but is that a fair test. as I've often said , if you pick on the Jabiru you MUST go after other motors which perform in the reliability stakes no better than Jabiru, .but what a tin of worms you open up then. Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

But surely numbers count for something. You can't say they must go after the rare engines that aren't in any numbers .

 

 

[01rmb]

Perhaps it's the numbers? At your average bankstown or moorabin, would the " worse" engines be represented in any real " threatening numbers?( genuine question)

I really don't know - possibly. More aircraft with suspect reliability increases the risk, but, is not one forced landing in a city one too many? I really don't know what the objective is.

 

Is reliability only an issue if there are 'too many' occurrences or is it too many aircraft as opposed to a percentage of flight time/landings? Would Jabiru have been okay if they had produced less than 1,000 aircraft? What about any new engines that are introduced or a new model that has issues - what standards are they to meet or does it not matter until there are 'too many' of them?

 

I would have said the problem was (arguably) that Jabiru failed to act appropriately to engine failures and taken appropriate action to reduce the number of occurrences - so surely any action should have been to have Jabiru undertake better investigation of engine failures and ensure they implemented improvements (design, operation or maintenance) to avoid future problems, as per their requirements under the LSA rules. If so, then should CASA not be undertaking increased audits of what Jabiru do with reported engine failures?

 

Maybe they are, but to restrict aircraft operations like they have sets a dangerous precedence for all of RA-Aus and GA in general. Could it be that RA-Aus and their cheap little aircraft are to be forced to stay in the country and not be allowed near populated areas? Can of worms indeed.

 

 

[jetjr]

there was some data showing most of the failures happened east of dividing range.

 

This might solve it and then we will all be safer

 

 

[DonRamsay]

Would you include VW and Subaru conversions in that "rare" category?

 

With very little more effort CASA will have achieved their ultimate goal of having every light aircraft in Australia safely tucked up in their hangars - permanently - and therefore achieve the world's best aviation Safety record.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

I have heard but don't know if it is true or not that the acting Director of Aviation Safety is as anti RA-Aus as the outgoing Director McCormick demonstrated during his term by stopping virtually all advancement of RAA safety ( e.g. heavier therefore stronger aircraft and transit of CTA). Combine that with the illogical, unrelenting attacks by the branch of CASA that was established, so it seems to me, to destroy RAA and you have a very ugly picture of the future for light aviation.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

Might just add to the above, the botched implementation of the RPL and "drivers licence" medical. Perhaps more evidence of anti RAA attitudes and intent?

 

 

[Oscar]

Since the ATSB figures recently released showed a DECREASE of about 18.75% in the rate of Jabiru engine 'incidents' from 2012 to 2013, while Rotax had an INCREASE in 'incidents' of nearly 60% over the same period, it's a bit of a stretch on CASA's part to single out Jabiru as having an increasing rate of failures while ignoring Rotax. By what logic does a difference of .6 of an engine 'incident' per 10,000 hours flown become the dividing line between 'unacceptable' and 'acceptable'?

 

 

[planesmaker]

Seems the new "proposal" has no further consultation with industry. Put out a extreme proposal , "consult with industry" then tone it down a little to what they really intended, and without further consultation, implement. Consultation is a farce! Tom

 

 

[dodo]

What is is the standard for engine reliability? Shouldn’t an analysis be preformed on all RA engines in use. What about two-strokes? No special mention?

 

And how will CASA work with jabiru on the issues in future...no answers here.

 

It is a rather unimpressive act by the regulator that won't satisfy anyone at all - or achieve anything?

 

dodo

 

 

[gandalph]

Since the ATSB figures recently released showed a DECREASE of about 18.75% in the rate of Jabiru engine 'incidents' from 2012 to 2013, while Rotax had an INCREASE in 'incidents' of nearly 60% over the same period, it's a bit of a stretch on CASA's part to single out Jabiru as having an increasing rate of failures while ignoring Rotax. By what logic does a difference of .6 of an engine 'incident' per 10,000 hours flown become the dividing line between 'unacceptable' and 'acceptable'?

To paraphrase Lewis Carrol:

 

When I use a statistics,' CASA said in rather a scornful tone, 'they mean just what I choose them to mean — neither more nor less."

 

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make statistics mean so many different things."

 

"The question is," said CASA, "which is to be master— that's all."

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I have heard but don't know if it is true or not that the acting Director of Aviation Safety is as anti RA-Aus as the outgoing Director McCormick demonstrated during his term by stopping virtually all advancement of RAA safety ( e.g. heavier therefore stronger aircraft and transit of CTA). Combine that with the illogical, unrelenting attacks by the branch of CASA that was established, so it seems to me, to destroy RAA and you have a very ugly picture of the future for light aviation.

The word around the ridges is that the incoming is more in favour of Sport aviation.....we can only hope. It is clear to me that SASAOs intention is to take over and control all sport aviation, eliminate self- administration, and have us all get a RPL..with strings attached and medicals.

 

 

[planesmaker]

Furthermore, no mention of how or by what means these limits can be lifted? What criterior do Jab have to meet to satisfy the CASA reliability requirements? What are the requirements? Lots of questions that CASA have not thought through, and no further consultation? Tom

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

PS What the hell was the consultation about? did they even read what was submitted?

I'm sure they read it...but obviously they didn't take it on board.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Furthermore, no mention of how or by what means these limits can be lifted? What criterior do Jab have to meet to satisfy the CASA reliability requirements? What are the requirements? Lots of questions that CASA have not thought through, and no further consultation? Tom

It was previously stated in the 'instrument' that the restrictions would be in place for 12 months and then reviewed. It sounds like they expect Jab to fix their problems by them....or ?

 

 

[JEM]

The draft in MS Word

 

AA CASA casa14292.docx

 

AA CASA casa14292.docx

 

AA CASA casa14292.docx

[facthunter]

Pretty poor outcome I reckon. What about the outfits that have had a No problems run? Does everyone just get lumped in together? Will the next be better than McCormick.? Doubt if he could be worse. I made it my business to note all comments from the last CEO of CASA when he first began his term. Clearly HE was not mentally across what we stand for and didn't support it at all. He also threatened to sue people adversely commenting upon him. I lost about $60,000 all up with things in process and which came to a halt even though the paperwork was fully processed. I can't recover that loss and that may well preclude me from participating at the level I was, ever again . The RPL situation is similar. I was told directly what had happened and won't disclose the particulars, to protect my source . They may come out anyhow. Say hello to John when you see him in his YAK. (unless he fails his RPL medical) Nev

 

 

[Teckair]

A very fair point you make . I have put the same situation up for consideration from the onset of what is happening here. The jabiru engine is certainly not the worst of them out there. Nev.

Which one is worse?

 

 

[01rmb]

Might just add to the above, the botched implementation of the RPL and "drivers licence" medical. Perhaps more evidence of anti RAA attitudes and intent?

 

The word around the ridges is that the incoming is more in favour of Sport aviation.....we can only hope. It is clear to me that SASAOs intention is to take over and control all sport aviation, eliminate self- administration, and have us all get a RPL..with strings attached and medicals.

In my years of consulting to a large number of businesses (and you can include CASA in that number) you can never discount the fact that some people behave irrationally and illogically because they actually don't know how to do the right thing. Never discount incompetence as the reason why they do some things and not others!

 

Unfortunately, I would say that CASA believes RA-Aus are not doing a good job (and past performances unfortunately doesn't help our case) and they think they can do better so they set up the RPL and continue to prevent extra privileges for RA-Aus which they afford their own equivalent (extra weight, passengers and controlled airspace access). They won't take back all the tedious administration work from RA-Aus but they will restrict controls, stifle growth and prevent anything positive to be achieved through severe management intervention, oversight and audits. Shame since there have been positive changes lately that demonstrate that RA-Aus is doing a a much better job now.

 

The irony is that if CASA feel that the Jabiru engine is not as reliable as it should be it is actually their poor management and lack of oversight ensuring that Jabiru were doing the right thing in investigating the engine issues and doing something to fix the problem/s. But with other light sport engines only a few occurrences behind Jabiru when does CASA stop restricting aircraft operations? And if they wanted to keep going why stop at recreational aircraft - GA are not as good as commercial so maybe all recreational/GA pilots should sit in the back seat of nothing smaller than a King Air whilst commercial pilots are in control. If you look at the crashes around Moorabbin it would be hard to say that the only problem in the air is Jabiru.

 

The only hope is that Mark Skidmore is able to pull CASA back from this unfortunate direction although unfortunately I would suspect it unlikely they did this on the last day before he came to power without consulting him.

 

 

[facthunter]

I might look stupid Techy bit I won't individually list them. Many engines that were the benchmark standard way back are no longer so, due to age , some not correct mods, and not being used regularly and maybe due to poor fuel and often operator lack of PROPER advice, to name a few causes. There's plenty of "witchcraft" out there about engines IF you want to believe it. Nev

 

 

[Teckair]

OK Nev every time I go in a Jabiru I have less confidence than most other types, I feel there is a unacceptable degree of risk the flight could end with the occupants hanging upside down in their seat belts. To me a properly maintained and operated Rotax two stroke would be a better proposition. I imagine CASA could be nervous about the fallout if a Jabiru goes down in a built up area and because there are so many of them the degree of risk is increased. There may be worse engines out there but they won't be certified and in the same numbers as Jabirus.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

So, what is the worst of them out there? CASA quote 45 'failures in 2014..Show me ONE engine that had 46?

 

 

[Keith Page]

Hello Don and Oscar

 

Don re your post 34 the RPL..

 

How can one market a dodgey product, to me the goal posts have wheels under them and the potential to get grander wheels. One has not got to be that bright to work that one out.

 

Oscar re your post 35 the satistic.

 

Things are not fitting to what we have with this current Jabiru debacle. As you incinuate there may be an ulterior motive with CASA's maneuvering.. One has to be suspicious you know.

 

Regards

 

KP