Jabiru limitations

[Geoff13]

Well there certainly some dubious claims by manufacturers, but that happens in many spheres of aviation. The task is big but it has to start somewhere and be followed up. We aren't good in that area. Many aren't because it is the hard part and not many gongs get awarded for diligence. Nev

All the gongs that matter do!

 

 

[jetjr]

Re CAE engines, bit more to it than 30 examples

 

The around 3000 solid lifter engines sold worldwide could be considered version 1.0.

 

Latest CAE is V2 onwards, very similar with some valuable improvements.

 

Even Ian believes std Jabiru solid lifter engine is quite sound.

 

All the previous experience does build a bigger picture than just 30 V2 examples

 

What you say about acceptable numbers for destruction etc would be fine if the market was big and wealthy enough to pay for it like automotive. Would also be a problem if you expect this every time a few components are upgraded.

 

Your headed down the track of fully certified engines where things cant be improved due to cost of retesing and recertification

 

 

[facthunter]

There are examples of where a destruct test of a production part is used to test ultimate failure loads to see if the assumptions and calculations were on the ball. There is a figure that meets the spec. When the B727 wing was tested it met the requirements but since the part was not suitable for use they continued to load it till the centre section failed in compression of the upper surface of that part of the wing. To fully utilise the extra strength of the rest of the wing the failed section was strengthened. No further tests were required. No one really knows what the actual limit is.

 

IF you improve certain weak or troublesome spots on a motor by using better materials or design, you can assume that part will perform better than the part it replaced if you have any real idea of what you are about. This sort of thing is done all the time. Sometimes by aftermarket parts or in house.

 

When you put an Alloy V8 Chev (Probably one of the most suitable in it's HP range) in an aeroplane you use better rods and crank and reduce the limit HP as well. Nev

 

 

[Guest Ornis]

The problem with just 30 engines is you need to be dyno testing and running to destruction more than that number to lnow you have a commercial product.

 

Re CAE engines, bit more to it than 30 examples. The around 3000 solid lifter engines sold worldwide could be considered version 1.0. Latest CAE is V2 onwards, very similar with some valuable improvements. Even Ian believes std Jabiru solid lifter engine is quite sound.

I agree with jetjr there was a well tested precursor to the CAE but I don't think CAMit thinks the solid lifter Jabiru is quite sound.

 

I think Ian "understands" the engine and believes he can make worthwhile improvements, and has indeed made modifications which - as facthunter has explained - should counter some of the problems. Better alloy for the heads is no secret.

 

Also, he will state categorically you need to monitor all CHTs and EGTs whereas Jabiru continue the line "one CHT no EGTs" which is 100% wrong.

 

There is a problem facing CAMit in the long-term even if Jabiru survives. China. Once recreational aviation and manufacture starts ... and it's on its way.

 

 

[jetjr]

From his mouth just few weeks ago

 

No doubts the newer version is better but $25K is a lot to replace a 200 hr engine running well

 

He actually talked me out of it

 

Says a lot about him

 

 

[qolbinau]

Am concerned at CASA's actions after reading this:

 

CASA actually asked RA-Aus for their numbers after they had drafted the instrument – they didn’t have anything until I asked RA-Aus and they sent them their unedited list of incidents which included everything and listed 40 engine failures, so that’s where CASA’s magic 40 figure came from.

 

When we finally worked that out with RA-Aus we spent a whole weekend going through the 40 events, comparing it with our list of failures, and working out which were just maintenance items like leaking fuel pumps, or simply running out of fuel, which were all on the CASA list. When we’d tidied it up we actually added some to the CASA list and when that was sorted out there were 12 actual in-flight engine failures which led to genuine forced landings. But that was in 93,000 flights, and 43,000 flying hours. And it was mainly flying schools because Jabirus are such popular training aircraft. We already had corrective measures in place for almost all of those 12, and had implemented them since 2011

http://proaviation.com.au/2014/11/28/indecent-haste/

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

From his mouth just few weeks agoNo doubts the newer version is better but $25K is a lot to replace a 200 hr engine running well

He actually talked me out of it

 

Says a lot about him

So at $25 K Jetjr we are up in a new Rotax 912 price bracket are we not ?.....

 

 

[Camel]

Am concerned at CASA's actions after reading this:

 

 

 

http://proaviation.com.au/2014/11/28/indecent-haste/

Write to the minister and to head of CASA and tell them they are incompetent.

 

 

[Guest Ornis]

Ian Bent believes the solid-lifter Jabiru engine is quite sound? I'm beginning to understand your faith in it now, jetjr. I know I'm opinionated and argumentative but could you get that in writing, please...

 

And, no, Maj Millard, a CAE is not AUD25K and a CAMit core is less.

 

 

[qolbinau]

Write to the minister and to head of CASA and tell them they are incompetent.

I'd prefer to sit on my computer and complain about it here to no one that has any decision making power, haha.

 

 

[damkia]

So far there has been in excess of 125 pages of "discussion" on this issue - precisely NONE of which will have any influence on any outcome by CASA.

 

1. We know there is a problem.

 

2. There is nothing that this forum or its members can do about it (unless you are employed high up by one of the parties)

 

3 Speculation helps nobody

 

4 Antagonism amongst members in this forum achieves nothing

 

5 Let the concerned parties (RAA/CASA/Jabiru/CAMIT) do their work to resolve this, or risk slowing progress due to continual interruptions by the many individual "interested parties". YOU ARE NOT ALONE, NOR ANY MORE SPECIAL/IMPORTANT THAN ANYONE ELSE.

 

 

[Camel]

I'd prefer to sit on my computer and complain about it here to no one that has any decision making power, haha.

Well I have a Jabiru and other things that are affected by CASA's actions. Jabiru latest email below.

Hello Jabiru Fleet,

 

Firstly, Happy New Year!! Jabiru has started 2015, its 27th year with a positive and constructive approach. We are focusing our efforts on improvements, education and training programs and communicating with our fleet. The focus at this point in time is, of course the outcomes of CASA’s recent actions.

 

 

[gandalph]

So at $25 K Jetjr we are up in a new Rotax 912 price bracket are we not ?.....

On commission Ross?

 

 

[turboplanner]

So far there has been in excess of 125 pages of "discussion" on this issue - precisely NONE of which will have any influence on any outcome by CASA.1. We know there is a problem.

 

2. There is nothing that this forum or its members can do about it (unless you are employed high up by one of the parties)

 

3 Speculation helps nobody

 

4 Antagonism amongst members in this forum achieves nothing

 

5 Let the concerned parties (RAA/CASA/Jabiru/CAMIT) do their work to resolve this, or risk slowing progress due to continual interruptions by the many individual "interested parties". YOU ARE NOT ALONE, NOR ANY MORE SPECIAL/IMPORTANT THAN ANYONE ELSE.

Good points damkia, I think it is very significant that after I explained the potential outcomes of this Instrument, there was quite a long silence then a return to the raucous engine promotion. The implications for owners, pilots and FTFs are now at an elevated level, and there is virtually no understanding of this based on the posts.

 

 

[Camel]

Good points damkia, I think it is very significant that after I explained the potential outcomes of this Instrument, there was quite a long silence then a return to the raucous engine promotion. The implications for owners, pilots and FTFs are now at an elevated level, and there is virtually no understanding of this based on the posts.

I have a very good understanding as a owner and FTF. I get insulted by comedians who tag posts as funny. The facts are real, CASA has already put Morgan Sierras, Foxcon Terriers and Pacific Ibis out of factory built 24 catorgory, I take this very serious and only write here hoping others will take it serious but seems a lost cause.

 

 

[dazza 38]

I have a very good understanding as a owner and FTF. I get insulted by comedians who tag posts as funny. The facts are real, CASA has already put Morgan Sierras, Foxcon Terriers and Pacific Ibis out of factory built 24 catorgory, I take this very serious and only write here hoping others will take it serious but seems a lost cause.

And CASA had a specific reason for every case mentioned above. People might not like it but CASA being the regulator can and have acted in the way they see fit.

Lightwing and Brumby are still in production the last time I heard,

 

 

[Geoff13]

From his mouth just few weeks agoNo doubts the newer version is better but $25K is a lot to replace a 200 hr engine running well

He actually talked me out of it

 

Says a lot about him

I don't know where the $25k comes from. I was quoted a darn sight less than that a late as today. What has surprised me is the delivery time frame seems to have gone out a bit since just before Christmas so whether that means they have received several orders or not I do not know.

 

 

[jetjr]

Probably right re price, i could easily have price wrong, didnt actually ask, what is correct price?

 

I do have price on a 6 cyl core somewhere

 

Assume im happy with near new std solid lifter, a short core doesnt loose the limitations and is a lot of work to swap out, entire new one is only option and still a lot of money, 10 K or 45K equally unachievable to me right now.

 

Yet AGAIN someone compares 912 price with 3300 application

 

Or maybe you have some cheap 914 with IFA prop to sell? Your a little over half price.

 

 

[Geoff13]

2200

 

Core 11.5k

 

Complete 14.5k

 

Delivery end of month

 

Fitting for me straight change over

 

I didn't price the 6, but the 4 is about 1k more than a jab motor

 

Rotax 912

 

23k

 

pus prop, oil tank, radiator, mounts

 

probably 2 to 4 weeks work doing it myself

 

 

[Oscar]

Ian Boag has reported on doing a 912 swap ( and I believe he got his 912 at a 'good' price), as $40k-plus and a hell of a lot more work and vastly more frustration than he'd anticipated.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes, I cant think of why anyone would bother....

 

 

[Guest Ornis]

To make life bearable, there are some things in life we must assume. A free will is one. It is perfectly clear we are victims of our genes, upbringing and environment.

 

I make the assumptions CASA's role is safety and it is not out to destroy recreational aviation. It seems clear to me CASA is concerned about the reliability of Jabiru engines.

 

If you argue that the data prove an engine widely known to be unreliable is just as safe as any other, that reliability and safety are not related, CASA is not going to listen.

 

If you say, CASA has excluded CAE from the limitations, can we explore operating Jabiru engines rebuilt to CAMit standards, CASA might just look at it. Even if CASA cannot compromise, due to its own rules, it will send a message to Jabiru.

 

It seems to me worth investigation. Telling CASA it's wrong, it's unfair, is not going to help. And no, I don't think the slippery slope argument (who's next) applies, nor do I think the false dichotomy argument (you give me no choice except a Jabiru engine and watching TV) will carry much weight either.

 

But then I'm just an ordinary person with no power or authority, just an idea.

 

 

[qolbinau]

If you argue that the data prove an engine widely known to be unreliable is just as safe as any other, that reliability and safety are not related, CASA is not going to listen.

Sorry I know we're going in circles but CASA are intervening (according to their words) because of the risk of *engine failures*, and the ATSB data show that *engine failures* are not substantially different from a 'reliable' engine. The reliability issues of Jabiru engines may cause engine failures, but this outcome does not appear to be much different from a 'reliable' engine. From what we've seen, CASA's data is junk (no base-rate, small sample, not looking into the actual cause of the engine failures when the information was available). If CASA won't listen to this, this is actually the problem here.

 

I value my safety and recognise that people have been complaining for years that Jabiru engines have reliability issues. This is hard to ignore. But it's also hard to ignore that when the ATSB do what seems like a thorough investigation, with years' of data and comparisons between engine types and registration types, there does not seem to be a clear outcome (in terms of engine failures) of these reliability issues. CASA actually say that data from the ATSB has informed their decision, which is also puzzling.

 

It seems like they've gone about the process all wrong, and given the potentially very negative economic effects of this decision on various stakeholders, you would think they would have been gone about it in a better way. They've apparently had years to conduct a thorough investigation.

 

 

[Guest Ornis]

qolbinau, greetings. How many decades did the data show smoking didn't cause lung cancer?

 

 

[qolbinau]

qolbinau, greetings. How many decades did the data show smoking didn't cause lung cancer?

I don't know about the history of that research. However, while such an analogy might help me accept that there can and are mistakes in research, the only helpful way to suggest that the ATSB data are inaccurate would be to provide reasons (e.g. unrepresentative sample). Is there any feature of the ATSB investigation that stands out to you that could suggest its results are inaccurate?