Jabiru limitations

[motzartmerv]

Nobody has the actual data for the claimed 45, other than CASA, and it refuses to release the details even to RAA. Draw your own conclusions, but we don't have to believe them until we see the evidence..'

We dont have to believe anything. The regs will mean you have to comply regardless of your beliefs Oscar.

 

I also accept that I fly recreational aircraft - an action that is now legally classed as a 'dangerous recreational activity' at least in NSW - at my own risk. '

Plenty of jab engines in VH aircraft too. How do they fit into your "Recreational aviation is dangerous mantra?"

 

But by what right do you decide that your standards must apply to everybody else? The CFI's of around 170 FTF's using Jabiru aircraft don't agree with you. That makes you in a minority of less than 1%. As the old saying goes: 'there's me bhoy - the only one in step.'

Oscar, how tirseome your digs become. Where have I spoken for what the other 170 FTF's should be doing? Ive indicated MY feelings and how I will be moving my school forward.

 

You profess to speak for the 170 schools though? What a crock of absolute garbage. Mate, I have many many CFI friends running these boat ancors, and believe me sporty spice, they DO agree, and they are in the same Sh1t pile as everyone else.

 

I havnt attempted top speak for the "masses" perhaps you could gift us all by doing the same.

 

Im sorry jab have ignored the consumer for 20 years and left you with a worthless slab in the front of your 19 rego'd 'repaired' wreck. But there are many who are in a far worse boat then you are. And they aren't in here bleeting rubbish, punching the 'percentage' button on their calculators attempting to "stat" their points of view across. Facts are facts mate, suck it up and move on.

 

 

[Oscar]

Merv, you have my unalloyed support to do what you like with your own FTF. I already endorsed that.

 

As for the rest of your 'last post' - let it rest in the fading light of the evening. Jeez, you wouldn't want to be moderated for a personal attack, would you?

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Motz...your finger must be hovering over the 'ignore' button on Oscar. I hit it several months ago and oh how I don 't miss listening to his rubbish !......it's Chrissy mate..go on give yourself a nice Pressy.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Gents

 

When things got personal in the previous thread Ian spoke a few times and then killed it. Please can everybody refrain from personal attacks...it helps nobody and adds nothing to the debate. Logical folk (and I know that everyone who posts here would, push come to shove , think of themselves as logical people), will play the issues, not the person.

 

I personally very much hope that the new DAS is a breath of fresh air and that he too is a logical person who can look at the facts and form a reasonable man view

 

Andy

 

P.S I know at times I too have played the man and not the issue so I don't ascribe that approach as a personality defect...just human reality.....so don't take it personally lets just see if this thread can survive...its important for so many reasons that it does and that we aviators have a consistent approach to the CASA actions. It really isn't so much about Jabiru in my opinion, but rather CASA, manufacturer/OEM and RAAus and reporting systems and thresholds of acceptable vs unacceptable. Blame doesn't live in just one place but probably every place IMHO.....

 

PPS this is my personal view and does not necessarily represent the view of the RAAus board

 

 

[Guest john]

GentsWhen things got personal in the previous thread Ian spoke a few times and then killed it. Please can everybody refrain from personal attacks...it helps nobody and adds nothing to the debate. Logical folk (and I know that everyone who posts here would, push come to shove , think of themselves as logical people), will play the issues, not the person.

 

I personally very much hope that the new DAS is a breath of fresh air and that he too is a logical person who can look at the facts and form a reasonable man view

 

Andy

 

P.S I know at times I too have played the man and not the issue so I don't ascribe that approach as a personality defect...just human reality.....so don't take it personally lets just see if this thread can survive...its important for so many reasons that it does and that we aviators have a consistent approach to the CASA actions. It really isn't so much about Jabiru in my opinion, but rather CASA, manufacturer/OEM and RAAus and reporting systems and thresholds of acceptable vs unacceptable. Blame doesn't live in just one place but probably every place IMHO.....

 

PPS this is my personal view and does not necessarily represent the view of the RAAus board

If the current actions that CASA have taken with respect to Jabiru Aircraft with Jabiru engines (as opposed to Camit Engines) then there would be no issue to deal with. The fact is that CASA have regarded Jabiru Aircraft with Jabiru engines only( & not with Camit engines) are an unacceptable risk in a built up area.

 

One simple solution to all this drama would be if Jabiru Aircraft were to go back to Camit & negotiate a COMMERCIAL JOINT VENTURE between both Companies, but for some unknown reason as simple as this procedure would be able to be implemented, this simplistic task seems to be in the too hard basket for Jabiru Aircraft or alternatively Jabiru Aircraft simply don't have the 'GUTS & FORTITUDE' to do this simple procedure.

 

 

[Camel]

If the current actions that CASA have taken with respect to Jabiru Aircraft with Jabiru engines (as opposed to Camit Engines) then there would be no issue to deal with. The fact is that CASA have regarded Jabiru Aircraft with Jabiru engines only( & not with Camit engines) are an unacceptable risk in a built up area.One simple solution to all this drama would be if Jabiru Aircraft were to go back to Camit & negotiate a COMMERCIAL JOINT VENTURE between both Companies, but for some unknown reason as simple as this procedure would be able to be implemented, this simplistic task seems to be in the too hard basket for Jabiru Aircraft or alternatively Jabiru Aircraft simply don't have the 'GUTS & FORTITUDE' to do this simple procedure.

A Cammit engine is an experimental engine and would be fitted to a home build or an experimental aircraft therefore NOT permitted to fly in controlled airspace or built up area that it cannot glide clear of, basically the same as what is threatened to do to Jabiru engines. I'm told jabiru is not interested in listening to Camit.

 

 

[Camel]

So....my 160c is no longer certified ??

Russ, read my post #66.

Your J160C is still certified but the engine is still subject to any restriction CASA imposes. I personally don't believe CASA will

 

Enforce it as it will bring a lot of Jabiru owners together for possible class action, as I said in #66 CASA did the certification so where is the proof of their case, they certified it ! Yes there are problems with the engine, but is this going to fix it by restricting it !

 

 

[frank marriott]

manufactured by Jabiru: in relation to an engine, includes an engine that is wholly or partly manufactured by a person under licence from, or under a contract with, Jabiru

 

Question: Is the Camit engine outside this definition?

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

A Cammit engine is an experimental engine and would be fitted to a home build or an experimental aircraft therefore NOT permitted to fly in controlled airspace or built up area that it cannot glide clear of, basically the same as what is threatened to do to Jabiru engines. I'm told jabiru is not interested in listening to Camit.

Ha thats funny.........why should they listen to Camit, they've never listened to anyone else !.......

 

 

[01rmb]

The way I understand it from the registration requirements (happy to be corrected by somebody that has better knowledge), even if you put a CAMit engine in, whether or not it is an improvement, the aircraft would face the same restrictions since the aircraft would become experimental (or still a home built) and would require approval from the tech manager specific for that aircraft to fly over populated areas. Now who would be game enough to provide that approval? The only way to fix the problem is Jabiru must include any modifications under their own authority. And if they did, what would be enough to satisfy CASA to lift the restrictions?

 

 

[Guest john]

A Cammit engine is an experimental engine and would be fitted to a home build or an experimental aircraft therefore NOT permitted to fly in controlled airspace or built up area that it cannot glide clear of, basically the same as what is threatened to do to Jabiru engines. I'm told jabiru is not interested in listening to Camit.

If in the event Jabiru Aircraft & Camit were to forgo politics between both of their good Aussie Companies, & were to enter into a COMMERCIAL JOINT VENTURE, this simple procedure would enable the defective Jabiru engines that were initially certified by CASA to be upgraded & modified to the reliable Camit engine standards once Jabiru Aircraft issue the necessary documentation & is approved by CASA, since Jabiru Aircraft already hold the relevant approvals from CASA for the Jabiru engines, & therefore once CASA approve the Jabiru engine upgradings & modifications to the reliable Camit engines, then these approved Jabiru/ Camit engines would comply to CASA's requirements & would therefore be able to be installed into all Jabiru airframes from firewall forward.

 

 

[kaz3g]

There are law firms that specialise in class actions and you would need to speak to some of them. They will decide if it is viable or not as they carry the can for costs which could be substantial.

 

Kaz

 

 

[facthunter]

If it IS over we are indeed in a confused state. There are issues of principle here, that concern me and should concern all those who have a desire /interest in what we call Recreational Aviation. NOT AIRLINES. Look what we have come from and some of the stuff that was flown not so long ago. It was only about 1987 that we had a 2 seat Thruster to train in, with a 2 stroke motor. Currently we are committing hari kari over the only australian engine around in any quantity, ( and if there were less of them they wouldn't be a problem??). The unique reliability of the Rotax 912 is recognised against just about any piston engine ever made for aircraft.. But ALL engines can fail and when there is only one of them it goes quiet. It's not as if the Jabiru is 5 or6 times more unreliable than the BEST. It's about 1/2 as bad again. It's a hell of an over reaction to KILL it DEAD and that IS what will happen. Some of the emotion and guesswork and wishful thinking going on here is wonderful to behold in it's simplicity. BUT it isn't what is needed. What is the fallout likely to be and what does it bode for the future of the RAAus? No one really has a clue where this will end . Does every engine have to be as reliable as the rotax 912? and the 80 HP one was the most reliable. How do you know the future models will be as good in the reliability stakes? . Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

There are law firms that specialise in class actions and you would need to speak to some of them. They will decide if it is viable or not as they carry the can for costs which could be substantial.Kaz

CASA not the only one with their neck in that noose.

 

 

[Guest Ornis]

If you bought a Jabiru engine in the past, you were constantly "upgrading" it as faults were found. Problem was, it was too late, the engine was already on the road to destruction.

 

Has that changed now? Is the engine "mature"? No. Rod Stiff just keeps introducing more problems. Roller-followers isn't the answer to hydraulic lifter issues. And hydraulic lifters was the answer to people, not the engine.

 

If you had an engine that had no serious problems in 1000 hours, congratulations. No one knows why. Few think the next is likely to do the same (unless maybe it's a certified version and unaltered).

 

If you have a Jabiru engine and think you won't have a failure because you are clever and those who do are ignorant and stupid, then you are probably going to have a forced landing.

 

If you think it's okay to take your kids on that basis, then perhaps it's their mother who should sign the waiver.

 

 

[planesmaker]

The way I see it, as LSA aircraft can't be modified except with approval from factory, Jabs will soon be very limited by the CASA and they won't change their edict. Only thing Jab owners can do is for all owners to call Jab and plead that they allow the Camit engine ( which appears to be unaffected by CASA limits)to be fitted and have their aircraft taken out from under the limits. Of course it will cost owners dearly, but the price of Jabs is only going down down down as it stands anyway. Perhaps Jabiru may listen although don't hold your breath. Seems the only thing that can be done at the moment that will fix the problem within a reasonable time frame. Tom

 

 

[facthunter]

Ornis your post doesn't have one technical statement of merit in it. Just emotive "stuff". When do we get past that stage of the discussion.? Sorry to be so boring as wanting "facts"..

 

Let's consider the Corby Starlet aircraft. Someone wants advice. to install a Jabiru 4 or some form of Volkswagen engine, both of which suit it . Would we just dismiss the Jabiru? Nev

 

 

[jetjr]

Ornis, just emotive rubbish

 

By far the majority are having satisfactory performance from Jabiru engines.

 

There are some maybe not seeing what they hoped for but are flying happily.

 

Even smaller number have had bad run. Very few, some say 12 others say 46, have had engine failures.

 

Many are locked into "factory built LSA" dream and arent getting what they expected from the aircraft. Whats at fault, the dream and expectations set or the reality?

 

This idea after 15 years operation they are suddenly they are so dangerous as to require a waiver is ridiculous.

 

Statistics shows clearly accident rates are similar for rotax and Jabiru powered aircraft. End of the day thats all that matters. Arguments on poor service or breakdowns are cost/service problems, not necessarily safety and shouldnt cloud the debate.

 

If you cant deal with that take up another pastime

 

Anyone considered what happens if Rotax follows the trend for reliability problems seen next year, they will be at similar levels.

 

 

[frank marriott]

"& modified to the reliable Camit engine standards "

 

Pretty big statement. I admire the followers absolute commitment to an uncertified and unproven modified engine. Whether the statement above is correct or not, it is not proven by numbers and hours (that is after accepting the emotive bias of some, 4 so far in this thread )

 

 

[Camel]

There are law firms that specialise in class actions and you would need to speak to some of them. They will decide if it is viable or not as they carry the can for costs which could be substantial.Kaz

My reasoning that class action is viable.

CASA certified the engine.

 

CASA have been aware of the engine history for some time and would have received defect reports.

 

Camit is a CASA approved supplier and has recognised the engine problems and addressed them but unaccepted by Jabiru.

 

Rotec and experienced engine manufacturer have recognised problems and addressed them but unaccepted by Jabiru.

 

Many people have modified Jab engine with sucess eg k-liner valve guides, but unaccepted by Jabiru.

 

Jabiru have issued ridiculous service letters in relation to their faulty parts eg valve washers.

 

CASA published their proposed restrictions before meeting Jabiru causing flying schools loss of buisness.

 

Very well cause loss of sales worldwide of Jabiru products.

 

Loss of value of Jabiru aircraft worldwide.

 

CASA released the first proposed restriction the last day of the CFI conference, never was discussed meaning CASA had NO Concern for the effect on RAA.

 

I believe world wide class action will be a serious option if certain people continue their self important BS and not consult and resolve the issues at hand.

 

 

[facthunter]

Frank I think "uncertified and unproven" while true as a statement doesn't give a fair impression of the situation, existing here.. CAMit have always manufactured the Jabiru engine, so would have a fairly good idea of the path it has gone down.

 

IF a mod HAS to improve the performance of a part and couldn't expect to degrade it because of better materials and manufacturing techniques/design while still being able to be fitted to the certified engine, Why can't it just be accepted subject to some extra observations and testing of that PART. They aren't breaking new barriers into the unknown in metallurgy here. This kind of change happens all the time with the big stuff, and occasionally they have to pull a big rabbit out of a big hat.. Certify and sit still doesn't work. It's a straight jacket .

 

I believe CAE engines are exempted from this directive anyhow so the qualifications and efforts of the manufacturer are accepted somewhat. Maybe they think a bit of pressure will force a reconciliation and they will make babies. Even the family court wouldn't go down that path. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

There's really no point in regurgitating theories, propaganda and skewed statistics now.

 

The Safety Regulator has made a decision; it's time to man up and work with the situation which will shortly exist.

 

CASA didn't make a prescriptive decision, such as grounding aircraft, and although I've mentioned performance standards and duty of care many times, the current situation seems to have left some people spinning in uncertainty and somehow believing that campaigning will change things.

 

Motz seems to be the only operator publicly across the situation.

 

There are now three standards of operational safety:

 

1. GA with its extensive safety infrastructure which would be regarded as the "Industry Benchmark"

 

2. RAA operations with a lower standard of safety, and an associated "Warning placard"

 

3. The aircraft subject to this limitation, associated with further and more detailed warnings

 

Things have changed dramatically in terms of your financial protection if you are in category three, so it's time to get some professional advice before you even start the engine, and you aren't going to get it on a forum site.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Nev, I am not knocking the Camit mods etc. by any means the point being that without "runs on the board" what proof is being used - Automatically accept it is better, over one I have no problems with anyway, It it just stated over and over like it is accepted fact. I am not knocking the work in any way just the apparent "approval"

 

 

[turboplanner]

My reasoning that class action is viable.CASA certified the engine.

CASA have been aware of the engine history for some time and would have received defect reports.

 

Camit is a CASA approved supplier and has recognised the engine problems and addressed them but unaccepted by Jabiru.

 

Rotec and experienced engine manufacturer have recognised problems and addressed them but unaccepted by Jabiru.

 

Many people have modified Jab engine with sucess eg k-liner valve guides, but unaccepted by Jabiru.

 

Jabiru have issued ridiculous service letters in relation to their faulty parts eg valve washers.

 

CASA published their proposed restrictions before meeting Jabiru causing flying schools loss of buisness.

 

Very well cause loss of sales worldwide of Jabiru products.

 

Loss of value of Jabiru aircraft worldwide.

 

CASA released the first proposed restriction the last day of the CFI conference, never was discussed meaning CASA had NO Concern for the effect on RAA.

 

I believe world wide class action will be a serious option if certain people continue their self important BS and not consult and resolve the issues at hand.

I've pointed out on several occasions that you can obtain compensation for your losses through the State Tribunal systems at very little costs you don't need a class action.

 

This situation is not like a toxic medicine which causes hundreds of cases of cancer and a common result such as death.

 

Each case here will be different, with different evidence and different losses, and the Tribunal system caters for things like a faulty oil filter causing a blown engine for example.

 

 

[facthunter]

Camel. There are flaws in that but you need the BEST advice. I have suggested the AOPA if you are a member. I AM still and many of you should be too. Spencer Ferrier has provided aid to the RAAus in the past. Not all operators are in the RAAus as some are VH (as you know).

 

Why would Jabiru approve after market modifications? It's a lose lose for them. I don't approve K liners for the valve guides either. And I have NEVER spoken with Rod Stiff, and have no connection with Jabiru..

 

The LAW is a blunt instrument, even in this country and few would trumpet it's state as fulfilling the needs of the average person often. It takes too long and is hellishly expensive. Outcomes are not predictable, even with what looks like an open and shut case. CASA are notorious for their for their persecution of people in the past. They don't like being made to look as if their judgement wasn't above reproach.

 

My view at this stage is don't go there , but my view at the moment is not fully appraised of the outcome sought , or the effect of such an action on a lot of already seriously affected owners and operators and the RAAus as a whole, and the U/L movement as it operates. Serious matters indeed. Only fools put into motion things they can't predict the consequences of. and can't control, once it gains it's own momentum. Nev..