Jabiru limitations

[biggles]

I have a dilemma which I think may affect others as well.  

 

I have a young student, who has done all his training in a LSA Jabiru, and is almost ready for his first solo.

 

The CASA Instrument has been proposed but not implemented ... yet.

 

As far as I can see the activation of the Instrument does not affect the actual risk involved in flying a Jabiru powered aircraft.

 

We (or most of us) have been willing to accept the engine failure risk for many years to this point in time. That risk has not changed.

 

 

 

Ignoring for the moment the arguments for and against the Instrument but knowing that the activation of the Instrument is potentially imminent should I:

 

a) send the student solo now before the Instrument is activated,

 

b) send the student solo now, before the Instrument is activated, but brief the student and parents on the impending Instrument and have them sign the "form",

 

[as far as I can see this is not leagally required but there may be a moral obligation],

 

c) wait until the situation is resolved (which may be a long time),

 

d) take up bowls?

 

 

 

Any other suggestions?

 

 

 

DWF

Some guidance from RAAus would seem to be appropriate .

 

Bob

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I have a dilemma which I think may affect others as well.  

 

I have a young student, who has done all his training in a LSA Jabiru, and is almost ready for his first solo.

 

The CASA Instrument has been proposed but not implemented ... yet.

 

As far as I can see the activation of the Instrument does not affect the actual risk involved in flying a Jabiru powered aircraft.

 

We (or most of us) have been willing to accept the engine failure risk for many years to this point in time. That risk has not changed.

 

 

 

Ignoring for the moment the arguments for and against the Instrument but knowing that the activation of the Instrument is potentially imminent should I:

 

a) send the student solo now before the Instrument is activated,

 

b) send the student solo now, before the Instrument is activated, but brief the student and parents on the impending Instrument and have them sign the "form",

 

[as far as I can see this is not leagally required but there may be a moral obligation],

 

c) wait until the situation is resolved (which may be a long time),

 

d) take up bowls?

 

 

 

Any other suggestions?

 

 

 

DWF

DWF have you undertaken the last Jabiru work where you had to analyse your specific risks with relation to fuel used, previous experiences and a couple of other factors etc then undertake none/some/more work as a function of the output of the risk analysis? I would think that conforming with that OEM advice would be a minimum wouldn't it?

 

Andy

 

P.S this is me the person talkin not a statement from the RAAus board or from the tech or opps manager

 

 

[gandalph]

Gandalph that explanation related to an MTOW of 430kg's hardly the case today, nor is the aircraft we are talking about even close to the same thing anymore.But, it is still the case that a 912 wont simply slot in there will be engineering work required

 

Andy

Yeah Andy I know, and I put it in as an historical document providing providing some insight into their decision not to go with the Rotax and why it's still not a simple "lets just drop in" job. The trade offs are still valid today even if the numbers have changed.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Who wants a wager? Ill bet within 3 months we see Rotax optioned in jabs. $10. Cybershake on that!!

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

[quote="facthunter, post: 467.

 

Only fools put into motion things they can't predict the consequences of. and can't control, once it gains it's own momentum. Nev..

 

Bowling clubs appear to have more arguments than in aviation...

So true Nev. We are the luckiest generation in the luckiest country, yet there are lots of unhappy people. My wife's club is riven by pettiness, but I'm told the men's club is worse!

 

 

[gandalph]

Who wants a wager? Ill bet within 3 months we see Rotax optioned in jabs. $10. Cybershake on that!!

Oh Merv, That is so tempting, but I don't know whether He Who Must Be Obeyed allows gambling on this site.

 

 

[Russ]

I'm cybershakin you there merv. ( easiest $10 I've earnt today ).....can see yanks and SA doing it tho.

 

 

[Oscar]

In relation to the above quoted piece from Phil Ainsworth: IF my memory serves me correctly, the MTOW allowable under 95.55 at the time the LSA55 was designed, was 450 kgs. In one of the rare examples of the Australian Airworthiness authority actually listening to its constituency, it raised that to 544 kgs, quite a time later. (Just for once, Australia lead the world there).

 

Jabiru developed a unique business model for aircraft production: the extensive use of 'cottage' contractors supplying parts to the factory for assembly. ( One saw trailer loads of fuselages, wings etc. coming into town for delivery to the factory from the individual contractors.) That, in turn, necessitated a methodology for manufacture that could maintain adequate QA from production in a simple 'backyard' environment: hand laid fibreglass woven rovings with ambient-cure, temperature-tolerant resin: Araldite LC3600.

 

In the choice of a low-tech composite construction capable of being produced very much on a 'shoestring' - without the expense of high-tech facilities that would have required significant increases in the cost of the aircraft in order to amortise the cost of the facility development - lies the genesis of the recognised Jabiru airframe toughness. Those who understand composite construction design will appreciate the differences between resilience and strength; for a classic example, you need look no further than mass-production low-tech and ( reasonably) affordable composite yachts that regularly bounce off wharves, rocks, other boats, vs. the ultra-hi-tech all carbon-fibre Australian 12 metre yacht that broke in half in San Diego harbour and sank in seconds. It was designed to provide maximum strength (and stiffness) for the duration of the Series and not one minute more (the designers' words), but missed that target..

 

NO Australian aircraft manufacturer - of which there are very few - has achieved the sorts of numbers for domestic and international sales, ever, that Jabiru has - by orders of magnitude. There is NO Australian-produced aero engine that has achieved certification / certifying to ICAO-accepted standards, other than Jabiru. Jabiru's competitiveness in the international market is a combination of performance and price and the cost of the engine is part of the price equation, while the weight is a significant part of the performance equation.

 

That current Jabiru engines do not cut the mustard by comparison with the 'industry' leader' - is incontrovertible. CAMit has an engine waiting in the wings, as it were, that would do that and be usable in a Jabiru airframe without negating any of that airframe's other desirable qualities: cost, performance, safety. Jabiru are being intransigent, CASA is being totally unhelpful and useless in allowing the marriage of a better engine with the good qualities of a great airframe.

 

The unfolding quasi-tragedy for recreational aviation in Australia is that a Stiff-necked attitude by Jabiru, and a totally antipathetic (and self-serving, in terms of bureaucratic ethos) attitude by CASA to providing resolution of the issues, may well be the straw that breaks recreational aviation's back. Agenda-borne stridency does precisely nothing to help the situation, but indeed hastens the possibility that recreational aviation could implode.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I'll accept payment in ale's at the next flyin:)

 

 

[Oscar]

Who wants a wager? Ill bet within 3 months we see Rotax optioned in jabs. $10. Cybershake on that!!

At $10, not worth even considering. But - I'll be revisiting that promise on 22/03/2015. Given your exposition early this current year that RAA was 'going to take action' on Jabiru, I reckon I'm on safe gound even if I took a $100 bet to be delivered bare-arsed in the middle of George Street on a Saturday afternoon. And I have NO desire to be the recipient of your bet.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Well, you know what they say... Never take a bet your not sure you will win;)

 

 

[Oscar]

Are you listening to your alter ego there?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

No, thats my primary ego.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

But - I'll be revisiting that promise on 22/03/2015. Given your exposition early this current year that RAA was 'going to take action' on Jabiru, .

Yep, you certainly would have taken a loss on that one too ey?

Id be surprised if it takes that long, but Ill be here, egg removing utensils in hand (once again) to assist you :)

 

 

[Geoff13]

Is that true? What components?

Coils for one!

 

 

[gandalph]

Coils for one!

WOW!

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Ive heard lots of parts, like circlips, nuts and bolts. Not sure why thats a problem though.

 

 

[Geoff13]

Hey you only asked for one. Not a complete list.

 

 

[Geoff13]

Probably not for this thread but I had the opportunity to spend some time at the Camit factory last week. It was very interesting on several levels. Oh and highly recommended for anyone with an interest in their engines.

 

 

[Oscar]

Yep, you certainly would have taken a loss on that one too ey?Id be surprised if it takes that long, but Ill be here, egg removing utensils in hand (once again) to assist you :)

Merv, RAA did NOT take 'action' (it has no power to take 'action', you need to look at the regs here to realise why. ) CASA took 'action', and refuses even to divulge the 'data' it claims to hold as the basis for taking that action.

 

Look at the RAA response, FFS: the RAA Board repudiated the CASA action in toto. The intelligent members of the Board understand the scope of the issues involved.

 

 

[Oscar]

No, thats my primary ego.

Merv - I do share your pain. There may be an ointment?

 

 

[gandalph]

Probably not for this thread but I had the opportunity to spend some time at the Camit factory last week. It was very interesting on several levels. Oh and highly recommended for anyone with an interest in their engines.

Well.........Components with an S, but as Merv said is that a problem? (Hell it must be Christmas! Now I'm agreeing with Merv!)

 

 

[gandalph]

From the RAA Christmas newsletter just received by email.

 

"Note to members on Jabiru issues

 

As most people are aware, CASA published a draft instrument on 13 November 2014 which would have the effect of restricting the operations of aircraft with a Jabiru powerplant. This would affect more than 1000 RA-Aus registered aircraft and have an adverse impact on some two thirds of our flight training facilities.

 

Since the publication of this draft instrument RA-Aus has been working hard to understand the justification for these restrictions. We have, for some time, known that Jabiru engines have a higher tendency for failure than their Rotax counterpart and welcome any appropriate changes that would improve their reliability. We would also welcome any measures that result in improved reliability and safety of any aspect of our fleet. Having said this we are troubled by the process employed by CASA and especially the lack of transparency in terms of the implementation of these proposed measures.

 

RA-Aus has repeatedly requested the information used to justify statements made by CASA that claim the failure rate is increasing. We have also requested the analysis of said data in order to assess the veracity of these claims.

 

On 17 December 2014, almost five weeks after the draft instrument was published, RA-Aus received the data and was provided one, yes one, working day to respond. As one would expect we would have liked much more time to assess the data, understand the analysis and then form an opinion on the suitability of the proposed measures, however, regardless of taking some five weeks to provide the data, CASA allowed one day. In light of this our response was somewhat rushed.

 

Despite this, RA-Aus was able to note that the data provided to CASA on Jabiru engine failures only covered one partial year. The only time series data made available to us (although not provided to us) was via the ATSB. That is, no engine failure data beyond the beginning of 2014 was used by CASA to justify their position and they left us to infer what data the ATSB had provided.

 

With reference to the latter, RA-Aus has contested the validity of the ATSB data on the basis that it shows a decline in the hours flown by the RA-Aus fleet. This is in direct contrast to Government published figures which show a doubling in the number of hours flown since 2000.

 

This led us to a simple conclusion – CASA has not undertaken robust analysis on reliable data to establish with any degree of accuracy that the failure rate of Jabiru engines is increasing over time. This is despite their statement that they have found statistically significant evidence in support of their claims.

 

RA-Aus’ position is, as stated above, that the failure rate of Jabiru engines is greater than that of Rotax engines but that it is not worsening as per the unsubstantiated statement made by CASA.

 

In light of this RA-Aus responded to CASA, within their incredibly tight and unrealistic timeframe, to state that we oppose their draft instrument and suggested an alternative approach to addressing the real concerns. While CASA acknowledged that our response had merit within 24 hours of receipt they proceeded with the restrictions without due consideration of our arguments.

 

While the restrictions imposed on our members are less stringent than those originally proposed, our opinion is that they are still inappropriate. Furthermore, CASA has remained evasive in terms of providing information relating to what rate of failures would be deemed acceptable and so we remain uninformed as to what point the restrictions will be lifted other than the statement on the CASA website regarding a review by CASA early in the New Year and the six month validity of the proposed Instrument. We will continue to work with CASA and Jabiru in an attempt to address these issues, however, we can’t provide further information at this point.

 

RA-Aus is extremely worried about these actions and what this may mean for private aviation in Australia. Being the fastest growing sector of aviation it concerns us that unilateral action has been taken by the regulator that is not backed up by robust evidence which suggests the action is justified. It worries us that this precedent has the potential for further restrictions that may not be warranted based on incomplete data, deficient analysis and/or misleading claims. We also have concerns about the implications of CASAs decision and what it means for all self-administered aviation organisations as Part 149 is implemented.

 

RA-Aus will focus our efforts on improving safety in our sector by reviewing training methods and practices, improving our education programs, communicating safety findings (where permitted by law) and so forth. We will also remain very focussed on the outcomes of CASAs recent actions, the Governments recent announcements about the recommendations of the ASRR report and continue to hold CASA to the same high standards that they demand of the aviation industry."

 

 

[SDQDI]

Who wants a wager? Ill bet within 3 months we see Rotax optioned in jabs. $10. Cybershake on that!!

I reckon to make it interesting Merv we up the ante.

If they DONT come out with a rotax in three months you pay me 100$

 

If they DO come out with a rotax I'll collect 100$ off you

 

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes and

 

Merv, RAA did NOT take 'action' (it has no power to take 'action', you need to look at the regs here to realise why. ) CASA took 'action', and refuses even to divulge the 'data' it claims to hold as the basis for taking that action.Look at the RAA response, FFS: the RAA Board repudiated the CASA action in toto. The intelligent members of the Board understand the scope of the issues involved.

Yes and as I recall, the statement I made that caused so much name calling and 'oscaring' was that " steps are being taken"

To which you jumped up and down like a cat on a hit tin roof. Recall letters being written to Casa from raa? Recall the call for reports? From engineers an operators re jab failures FROM raa.

 

The action my friend, certainly was initiated by raa. Nobody had any clue this would be the result, but I do recall trying to tell you what was a foot, and you simply refused to believe that anything was going on.

 

I'm not the type to say I told you so... But...just for you... I bloody well told you so :)))