Jabiru limitations

[dlegg]

Nearly 2015 now and the cherished internal combustion engine has been around a long time since Daimler wove his magic, so why on earth isn't EVERY engine available capable of running to 80000hrs with just oil changes?

 

 

[jetjr]

The core to the numbers issue is we have no solid data

 

Everything is interpreted or suggestive from other information

 

Its a failing, in any case, RAA should look to improve.

 

limiting a n entire make of engine, several types and models, based on questionable data and mostly based on comparison to a competitor, indicates how biased and uninformed CASA is on the issue.

 

What if they compare airframes and limit them on the same basis.

 

STILL people think Jabiru are going to fix the problem....they dont know or cant fix what's wrong otherwise would have done it. As a result how can this instrument possibly bring improvement?

 

 

[turboplanner]

The core to the numbers issue is we have no solid dataEverything is interpreted or suggestive from other information

Its a failing, in any case, RAA should look to improve.

 

limiting a n entire make of engine, several types and models, based on questionable data and mostly based on comparison to a competitor, indicates how biased and uninformed CASA is on the issue.

 

What if they compare airframes and limit them on the same basis.

 

STILL people think Jabiru are going to fix the problem....they dont know or cant fix what's wrong otherwise would have done it. As a result how can this instrument possibly bring improvement?

The SPECULATORS don't have solid data.

 

RAA DOES HAVE accurate data on every incident reported along with at least a brief set of notes as to the the cause (or for the pedants, the symptoms) - unless they've lost that data or thrown it out.

 

The current situation is not being helped at all by RAA not making the base data available publicly, instead running an agenda, which in my opinion is ultimately going to make the situation worse. Government officials aren't as stupid as some would believe.

 

There are people suggesting the engine is being compared with others, but that is irrelevant as it should be, or you go down the false trail of always potting the bottom manufacturer.

 

Safety decisions should always be based on specific evidence, and if that hits the favourite make, or the President's pet rules, it still has to be done, given that just one fatal can trigger a severe reaction, which may well be prescriptive in the form of grounding.

 

There are no airframes which stand out as unsafe in the statistics I looked at, so the regulators are not likely to make the comparisons you suggest.

 

As to your last paragraph in terms of safety a manufacturer has no option but to fix the issue, full stop.

 

 

[facthunter]

Ornis, Unhelpful spin and emotive rubbish. Do you approach all your aviation activities with such a fact free analysis.? Nev

 

 

[Timm427]

If you get to the field and don't want to sign the paperwork you can always come for a ride in my 582 Rotax powered X-Air. No need for paperwork when you've got 2 stroke reliability up front.

 

 

[Oscar]

The SPECULATORS don't have solid data.RAA DOES HAVE accurate data on every incident reported along with at least a brief set of notes as to the the cause (or for the pedants, the symptoms) - unless they've lost that data or thrown it out.

Safety decisions should always be based on specific evidence,.

RAA email of 22 December:

 

This led us to a simple conclusion – CASA has not undertaken robust analysis on reliable data to establish with any degree of accuracy that the failure rate of Jabiru engines is increasing over time.

 

 

[facthunter]

That is an interesting revelation.. Holey shoes! Nev

 

 

[jetjr]

info from USA show some standout light airframes with problems

 

Dont think RAA have hidden data, what they have said is it doesnt match that of CAsa and ATSB. Question becomes where did they get data from?

 

The entire basis for this action, even mentioned in instrument is compared to other major makes. Its all they can work on as otherwise they would have to set acceptable reliability level. Every chance this would leave lots of other types on a limb too.

 

CASA also claims cylinder cracking as a known regular problem, i have never hear or seen this before. Wheres this data come from.

 

No manufacturer dont have to do anything, they can choose to, to keep business going. Can also just cut and run or change engine choice. Maybe sell to overseas.

 

They could roll out their new untested chinese version engine and have no retrictions too, just so long as it has a new name

 

If Jabiru decide to leave or whatever, existing owners are left with restrictions and no way to resolve it. Including those with modified engines under experimental reg.

 

Once everyone undestands this, the uselssness of the action will become apparent.

 

They cannot be forced to do anything. Been making this point for a long time. The leverage regulators can apply is limited by the manufacturers will or ability to stay in business. By damaging the business they in fact reduce their leverage.

 

 

[turboplanner]

RAA email of 22 December:This led us to a simple conclusion – CASA has not undertaken robust analysis on reliable data to establish with any degree of accuracy that the failure rate of Jabiru engines is increasing over time.

What point are you trying to push now Oscar?

 

I can think of two significant reasons for CASA drawing different conclusions to RAA, starting with the data which RAA supplies to CASA, but I'm not going to get into what is RAA and CASA business, and it's pointless for others to continue to try to inflame the situation with ghost statistics which may have no basis in fact whatsoever.

 

It's common practice in Australia for Regulators not to disclose what they know until an appropriate time such as a Coroners Hearing, Court Case, Senate Inquiry etc., the most common example being what state Police do.

 

 

[jetjr]

a question

 

Some time ago we got letter from Jabiru claiming once any modifications were done, then the engine was no longer a Jabiru and the name plate should be returned.

 

How do you make it no longer a "jabiru".

 

 

[jetjr]

Yes TP but they must reveal it then and its open to scrutiny and critical review

 

 

[facthunter]

Jetjr More wishful thinking and a hoped for deterrent, I expect. One would think it reasonable to not be held responsible for modifications that others do whether good or bad. Jabiru's get a lot of owner's ideas being applied on installations anyhow. Nev

 

 

[Oscar]

a questionSome time ago we got letter from Jabiru claiming once any modifications were done, then the engine was no longer a Jabiru and the name plate should be returned.

How do you make it no longer a "jabiru".

Well, firstly you need to understand that the removal of a data plate from an engine, prop etc. is a criminal offence unless authorised by CASA:

 

Part 4D Removal of data plates and registration identification plates

 

56 Definitions for this Part

 

In this Part:

 

manufacturer’s data plate means a manufacturer’s data plate attached to an aircraft, aircraft engine or aircraft propeller

 

under Division 21.Q.2 of CASR.

 

57 Removal or alteration of manufacturer’s data plate

 

(1) A person must not remove from an aircraft, aircraft engine, aircraft propeller, propeller blade or propeller hub a

 

manufacturer’s data plate that has been attached to the aircraft, engine, propeller, blade or hub, if the person does not have

 

CASA’s written approval to do so.

 

Penalty: 20 penalty units.

 

Note The removal of a manufacturer’s data plate is permitted during

 

maintenance, subject to conditions — see regulation 60.

 

(2) A person must not, without CASA’s written approval, remove

 

or engage in conduct that results in the alteration of any of the

 

information on a manufacturer’s data plate required by

 

Division 21.Q.2 of CASR to be there.

 

Once Jabiru has released an engine with its data plate attached, it is a 'Jabiru' engine - modifications or not. That is why a CAMit 'core rebuild' engine retains the Jabiru data plate but adds a CAMit 'modifications' plate.

 

A CAE engine has NOT been 'released' by Jabiru but by CAE so it has its own data plate and Jabiru have no legal responsibility whatsoever for that engine.

 

So the short answer is: you cannot 'de-Jabiru' an engine that has had a Jabiru data plate attached.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Thats not what Rod stiff says. He claims the minute you modify it, its not a Jab. Check out his Facebook page.

 

Does that part apply to LSA Oscar?

 

 

[01rmb]

I would say it is more emotion and frustration from Rod with people fiddling with the engine than reality. Although he could say that the aircraft no longer meets the registration requirements if it has been modified and therefore illegal unless the owner has transitioned it to experimental status.

 

It doesn't matter anyway if the engine wasn't a 'Jabiru', the aircraft would become experimental and it would have the same restrictions applied anyway unless the tech manager were to provide an exemption of those restrictions. And I would think that unlikely on an engine formally known as a Jabiru but with a new sticker on the side.

 

Unfortunately, we are going to have to wait for Jabiru to fix the problem or CAE to get a certified engine option as a plug in replacement. Even with the CAE engine the aircraft would become experimental (unless Jabiru accept it as an option) but at least there would be a possibility (however slim) that it would gain an exemption to the 'can't fly over populated areas' restriction.

 

 

[facthunter]

It would be a fairly brave person that would approve any single engine PISTON aircraft over a populous area, without legislative backing. In many places there is no place to "alight" with any certainty of not being injured or killed and involving third persons. Slow speed, and your skill is your friend. More golf courses needed? Nev

 

 

[01rmb]

If you get to the field and don't want to sign the paperwork you can always come for a ride in my 582 Rotax powered X-Air. No need for paperwork when you've got 2 stroke reliability up front.

And I guess that is a critical point (not picking a fight with 2 strokes). Is CASA saying that the only engine they have concerns about are Jabirus (of all types, manufacture year, modifications, service life and maintenance) that they need to keep them away from doing any harm and all other engines are okay?

 

We just wait to see what is next area of concern with higher than average problems - airframes with fatality rate due to poor safety structures, or airframes with a crash rate due to poorer handling or pilots with increased health issues?

 

What will be the justification to either include or exclude any matter of other factors to eliminate safety risks from the skies?

 

 

[Oscar]

Thats not what Rod stiff says. He claims the minute you modify it, its not a Jab. Check out his Facebook page.Does that part apply to LSA Oscar?

Without CASA's written approval to remove the data plate, you can't without breaking the law. Rod is wrong - unless he can provide that approval by some negotiated mechanism with CASA. Yes, it applies to LSA engines etc. -

 

 

 

HOWEVER, Rod could, if he wished (AND the necessary ASTM / JAR 22h /FAR 33 certifying / certification testing is successfully completed and signed off), allow the installation of a CAE engine OR a modified Jabiru engine in his factory-built aircraft.

 

Certificated aircraft (factory-built 'C' reg / 55 reg) can be modified by an EO from a Part 21M engineer (with CASA's tick-off). CASA's ludicrously and unnecessarily-complicated rules for the application of EOs make it a difficult exercise, but FTFs could change-over to CAE engines and be exempt from the CASA fatwa. A full explanation of the hoops necessary to be jumped through would bring tears of mixed mirth and rage to the eyes of anyone with a glimmer of common-sense, which rather automatically excludes CASA.

 

However, that mechanism remains theoretical until a Part 21M engineer is prepared to issue an EO and the only Part 21M engineer in the loop at the moment who is a) prepared to issue such an EO, and b) would have a decent chance of CASA having to accept that EO (since he is the only Part 21M engineer in this country who has undertaken certification tests on aero engines - the original Jab 2200s) will only do so once test-running of the CAE engine to the full JAR 22H regime has been completed.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

My take so far.

 

Casa has watered down the proposed regs to save face.

 

Nothing more to be achieved as damage to Jab name has been done.

 

Get a form signed by the passenger.

 

Don't fly where you can't glide to safety

 

Signage on panel.

 

That's it!

 

Jab will just wait out the storm, have a holiday or two, then back to business with tried and tested improvements.

 

IMHO

 

Phil.

 

 

[Yenn]

I havn't read all the previous posts in 9 pages, but this page poses a funny situation. If I work on a lycoming, or continental in a GA plane and havn't the required LAME certificates that engine is no longer a certified angine and the manufacturers plate has to be removed. The engine can only be brought bact to certification by complete checking by a certified LAME or maintenance organisation. How come the same doesn't apply to jab engines in GA aircraft?

 

 

[Oscar]

Yenn - that situation (with Lycomings etc.) would be, surely, that it is not compliant with its certification requirements? I.E a maintenance release cannot be issued.

 

 

[01rmb]

My take so far.Casa has watered down the proposed regs to save face.

Nothing more to be achieved as damage to Jab name has been done.

 

Get a form signed by the passenger.

 

Don't fly where you can't glide to safety

 

Signage on panel.

 

That's it!

 

Jab will just wait out the storm, have a holiday or two, then back to business with tried and tested improvements.

 

IMHO

 

Phil.

It is good for those that are located in Loxton. For me, Archerfield is 5 minutes away and I had it on line as a favour for a local flight school which meant that I covered my maintenance costs with a highly respected LAME. I now need to relocate over an hour away and need to find someone who will look after it, in addition to the loss of income to cover those costs.

 

Now as long as Jabiru can stay in business to produce the parts you need to keep your aircraft going you will remain okay, but, I am not sure how many aircraft or parts sales Jabiru needs to stay in business given how few sales they will now make given the effect of the CASA restrictions and the fear and liability risk it creates.

 

 

[facthunter]

Regarding the data plate and it's removal. I can't see how that is an issue unless it is an attempt to hide or change the identity of an engine that may end up back in an aviation environment, or you want to re establish its fitness for use.. You are in the same boat if you have no logbooks or record of ownership. Nev

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

It is good for those that are located in Loxton. For me, Archerfield is 5 minutes away and I had it on line as a favour for a local flight school which meant that I covered my maintenance costs with a highly respected LAME. I now need to relocate over an hour away and need to find someone who will look after it, in addition to the loss of income to cover those costs.Now as long as Jabiru can stay in business to produce the parts you need to keep your aircraft going you will remain okay, but, I am not sure how many aircraft or parts sales Jabiru needs to stay in business given how few sales they will now make given the effect of the CASA restrictions and the fear and liability risk it creates.

Indeed I await with interest to see what happens to aircraft hull insurance renewals in coming times.....Ideally nothing because of all the entities discussed so far I suspect that the insurance companies have the most accurate view as to real reliability issues and RAAus member piloting skills in the event of a failure....but I for one don't for one minute believe that an event that could lead to a gouge will be left lying beside the path untouched by the insurers of this world....

 

If anyone is renewing shortly let us know what happens premium wise

 

Andy

 

 

[biggles]

Indeed I await with interest to see what happens to aircraft hull insurance renewals in coming times.....Ideally nothing because of all the entities discussed so far I suspect that the insurance companies have the most accurate view as to real reliability issues and RAAus member piloting skills in the event of a failure....but I for one don't for one minute believe that an event that could lead to a gouge will be left lying beside the path untouched by the insurers of this world....If anyone is renewing shortly let us know what happens premium wise

 

Andy

I paid mine a week ago with QBE Andy . No change from last year , but then again the renewal premium was probably formulated a month or more ago . Will be interesting to see what happens to renewals in the coming months .

 

Bob