LOW LEVEL TRAINING & TESTING APPROVALS

[poteroo]

Instrument N0 289/14 Issued 24/12/2014

 

 

CASA have issued an approval for all CAR V / CAO 29.10 low level approved instructors to continue their activities for 18 months while the CASR Part 61 mess is sorted out in practice.

 

This instrument gives us the capacity to train and test under the Part 61 Manual-of-Standards - as if we were Flight Examiners or ATO's.

 

I initiated this action via a letter last July, along with discussions with our WA FOI's. It's a sensible temporary solution to the impasse' we faced with the requirement for only an FE to conduct rating tests and renewals.

 

Not often one receives good news from CASA on the last working day but in this case I must congratulate them on a sensible and workable solution.

 

happy days,

 

 

[poteroo]

What Relevance is the above Info to RAAus ?

 

 

Sorry folks - should have included my take on this. There is a fast decreasing number of LL qualified instructors, (with training approvals), in GA. This Instrument will allow for younger GA instructors, including those holding FE/ATO approvals, to receive training from the older brigade not far from retirement.

 

Now, in RAAus, it happens that an instructor doesn't need any special training approval, so once they have a low level endorsement - they can train, test and check any RAAus pilot on LL ops. As I see it, CASA isn't likely to allow this difference to exist for much longer. The risks are exactly the same - GA or RAAus.

 

I've long held that all instructors should be LL qualified - otherwise how can you effectively train in forced landings, precautionary search & landing, low level circuits and low level navigation?

 

Because there are likely to be many less LL 'training' qualified instructors moving out of GA into RAAus, it's likely that there will be less RAAus instructors able to teach LL in years to come. Time for some upskilling in our ranks?

 

happy days,

 

 

[nong]

Pilots on low level work in RAAus or ASRA aircraft usually teach themselves "on the job".

 

Discussions on low level training tend to be moot as it is easier to stay out of a system that is a web of restrictions.

 

 

[kaz3g]

But what's the failure rate for students at this school, Nong?

 

Kaz

 

 

[DWF]

Pilots on low level work in RAAus or ASRA aircraft usually teach themselves "on the job".Discussions on low level training tend to be moot as it is easier to stay out of a system that is a web of restrictions.

I think you are living up to your name on this one, Nong.

 

Low level is a rather harsh and unforgiving environment for (usually low time) pilots to be teaching themselves by "trial and error" "on the job".

 

One could say it is a "target rich environment" for Darwin Award candidates.

 

The [high] failure rate (as Kaz infers) for students of this school is a major reason why CASA already devotes some attention to this area.

 

 

 

Low level operations that come unstuck can only result in further unwanted attention from CASA and more restrictions imposed on our flying operations.

 

Being dead is also a severe restriction to your flying.

 

 

 

DWF

 

 

[facthunter]

How do you know?. Good people get their own set of wings don't they?. No first hand comments available to my knowledge. Nev

 

 

[DWF]

G'day Nev.

 

How do you know?.

A little picky there I feel. I should have been remember you were lurking there and been more specific so I shall rephrase ....

Being dead is also a severe restriction to your RAAus flying in this jurisdiction. (I assume that is the part of my post to which you are referring.)

 

Ghost pilots in the sky??

 

Good people get their own set of wings don't they?.

How do you know?

 

No first hand comments available to my knowledge.

Agreed.  

 

DWF

 

 

[facthunter]

.

 

The "How do you know" was totally general. As in how would anyone know these things? I agree with you. AS FAR AS I KNOW being dead is a lot different to not being dead.. Most of us try to avoid it as long as possible. It seems to be a very strong instinct with all animals too

 

With this Low Level Training, why don't we just tell our people WE as instructors, WANT it? ( Assuming we do of course. I think it's absurd like it is). Nev

 

 

[DWF]

Statistics show that most civil aviation accidents occur at Low Level .... often when an aircraft collides with terrain.

 

 

[flyerme]

Wonder how many of all pilots that crash due to " low level" have actually done there low level coarse? As we all now know. , I completed my LL endo only to be denied ( due to CASA involvement- not allowing LL at the time 2011.) how ever I strongly believe the coarse made me a safer pilot . I understand all the factors involved and know how unforgiving it can be - . I don't need a couple of L's on my certificate anyway because the LL was really a massive beneficial learning aid... My old cfi still believes it should be part of the sylibis

 

 

[dazza 38]

Wonder how many of all pilots that crash due to " low level" have actually done there low level coarse? As we all now know. , I completed my LL endo only to be denied ( due to CASA involvement- not allowing LL at the time 2011.) how ever I strongly believe the coarse made me a safer pilot . I understand all the factors involved and know how unforgiving it can be - . I don't need a couple of L's on my certificate anyway because the LL was really a massive beneficial learning aid... My old cfi still believes it should be part of the sylibis

I agree Tim, the LL course would be excellent course for all pilots.

 

 

[facthunter]

Well since there is some opposition higher up (no pun intended) why not start with giving the training to the instructors who will after all have to train the masses and see how that goes. Extra training for instructors could hardly be a waste of time as has been argued well here, it is needed to effectively TRAIN students for LL EFATO, or partial failure. OR any off aerodrome landing whether powered or not. Even a precautionary search or critical go around.. Nev

 

 

[poteroo]

Low level operations that come unstuck can only result in further unwanted attention from CASA and more restrictions imposed on our flying operations.Being dead is also a severe restriction to your flying.

It will be no surprise if yesterdays C172 crash in Tasmania turns out to be due to loss of control at low level. If it was flown under 'Aerial Work', ie a commercial operation, I'd suggest there's going to be some serious questions raised by CASA.

 

 

[BoxFat]

Yep - manoeuvring for photos at (reportedly) "mast height" over water - serious training required to do that safely. A hazardous operation even for highly trained and current pilots.

 

 

[facthunter]

One of the situations where a high wing configuration is more dangerous. Low over water is harder to judge too moreso if it's calm. (which it wasn't). Calm water is a real trap. Nev

 

 

[nong]

I think you are living up to your name on this one, Nong.

Low level is a rather harsh and unforgiving environment for (usually low time) pilots to be teaching themselves by "trial and error" "on the job".

 

One could say it is a "target rich environment" for Darwin Award candidates.

 

The [high] failure rate (as Kaz infers) for students of this school is a major reason why CASA already devotes some attention to this area.

 

 

 

Low level operations that come unstuck can only result in further unwanted attention from CASA and more restrictions imposed on our flying operations.

 

Being dead is also a severe restriction to your flying.

 

 

 

DWF

Did you read my post?

My post was a statement of something I know to be true.

 

It did not contain a recommendation.

 

Thankyou for telling me about the "harsh and unforgiving environment"........fancy that. Who would have thought.

 

 

[flyerme]

There is no greater feeling than flying so low

 

Adding less throttle and going real slow

 

Watching the trees as they pass on bye

 

Knowing full well that you should be high

 

But in your head you really don't care

 

For all you can think is your alone in the air

 

The disregard you have for us all

 

May one day bite when find the stall

 

You won't be told of the danger that lurks

 

Instead you claim were nothing but jerks

 

So once again you skim the ground

 

Darting through trees a bird you found

 

The sound of cracking, breaking and tearing

 

You now find your self like a trooper swearing

 

You still have control but at 50 feet

 

You realise now the maker you'll meet

 

your prop has gone and there's no where to go

 

And you know damn well what's hiding below

 

You thought you were smart, skilled and cool

 

Darting threw trees to line up the school

 

Your son you think as you try to gain hight

 

But all you can find is that talked about bite

 

Your plane now stalls and the last thing you see

 

Is your beautiful son waiving as you crash threw the screen

 

A father now lost, and papers they write

 

Of a man who flew low in a plane that did bite.

 

 

[Pilot Pete]

AMEN

 

 

[rdarby]

So is this actually available anywhere? Specifically QLD?

 

 

[poteroo]

So is this actually available anywhere? Specifically QLD?

Low level instruction is definitely available from at least 3 FTFs in WA. In other states you'd need to read up their capabilities. It might be useful if Ops HO was able to create a listing of FTFs, (on the RAAus site), which had capabilities in specialist fields such as Low Level. happy days,

 

 

[facthunter]

Yes but you have to have a reason to need it. Being an Instructor is not one of them Why? I was qualified to do it as a GA instructor.. This one needs sorting out. Nev

 

 

[David Isaac]

Yes but you have to have a reason to need it. Being an Instructor is not one of them Why? I was qualified to do it as a GA instructor.. This one needs sorting out. Nev

YES ... it really needs to be sorted out professionally for RAAus. Training should be available even if just to increase your awareness and skill set. It does NOT necessarily mean you intend to use/do it (LL that is).

 

 

[facthunter]

It's fairly likely you won't be safe to do an off field landing properly, without that training. Aerodromes don't always make themselves available at short notice.. A STANDARD circuit is only something you use as a basis for the one you have to invent when the time comes.. Lets train our pilots to fly and give them abetter chance to survive..Nev

 

 

[poteroo]

YES ... it really needs to be sorted out professionally for RAAus. Training should be available even if just to increase your awareness and skill set. It does NOT necessarily mean you intend to use/do it (LL that is).

Have raised this point within OPS, but it will need to be pushed. There is no such requirement in GA, and I have done many LL's for PPL's who just want to improve their skills. Often done as their 'BFR'. Because there's always been some flexibility in the content of the GA LL - I've usually 'tailored' the course a little so as to teach new, and improve certain skills - rather than create a pilot ready to go mustering. happy days,

 

 

[BoxFat]

Poteroo: Can you explain what is involved in the low level instruction ? i.e. what exercises, how long does it typically take etc ?

 

Tks,

 

BF