CASA 292/14 - Conditions and direction about Jabiru engines

[JEM]

Hi Camel

 

I was one of the people who received a letter from Warren Truss about this matter His final paragraph says

 

"On the basis of suggestions received from a number of key stakeholders during the consultation process, CASA has also advised that it will review these limitations early in 2015. I have asked CASA to undertake this action expeditiously."

 

As we are nearly into March 2015 with no expeditious result yet. I hope that something happens soon.

 

 

[Camel]

Jem, I have the same letter from Truss and have written again in disgust of receiving a standard letter with not one question answered, I have written many times to CASA and after many unacceptable responses have finally got the big load from the main problem, many unanswered questions and lots of pathetic trying to justify their actions, will post all here soon but awaiting another response first, I can tell you that CASA is on a mission to destroy recreational aviation in Australia, if I'm wrong I probably won't be allowed to fly anymore for my stirring so far ! This is not just about Jabiru it is about the rights of Australian citizens, CASA think they can do what they like and Truss is supporting them. CASA have hurt a lot of people and I can assure you that the current government is going to get a lot of egg on their face soon, the new aviation director may be the shortest on record if he allows this circus to continue !

 

 

[Guernsey]

And if you were wondering how many posts were relevant to the title, I think there might have been 3. That includes the original post:no way:

Thanks, that is what I mean't.

Alan.

 

 

[facthunter]

I never expected anything from W Truss. You have to try though. Nev

 

 

[coljones]

I understand that Lee Ungermann will be at the CASA stand at the Avalon Airshow. Any contributors might seek further info from Lee and pass it on.

 

 

[Camel]

I understand that Lee Ungermann will be at the CASA stand at the Avalon Airshow. Any contributors might seek further info from Lee and pass it on.

Anyone who is going to Avalon and wants to chat to him or want to write to CASA, I'm happy to email some info that tells what is going on ! PM your email to me if you wish a copy of email. Like I said will post here soon once I have another response.

 

 

[frank marriott]

My opinion, if you want a sensible conservation with CASA I wouldn't include Ungermann in that conversation. My opinion your choise.

 

 

[Camel]

My opinion, if you want a sensible conservation with CASA I wouldn't include Ungermann in that conversation. My opinion your choise.

You are absolutely correct,

 

 

[Oscar]

Whatever one's opinion of Ungermann may be, what would you seriously expect him to say in a public space with a (to him) 'unkown' audience?

 

I remain personally unconvinced that Ungermann unilaterally had a sudden and monumental brain-fart late in 2014 regarding Jabiru engine problems; I am aware that he was expressing 'reservations' about them while still with RAA ( not as an expression of a RAA position but as an entirely personal comment, that he felt less confident about them than about Rotax 912s).

 

However, I do remain personally convinced that there was a very, very considerable amount of high-level politics taking place in CASA that resulted in the sudden application of an action with far-reaching potential consequences for recreational aviation in this country. The timing of and the stated reasons for the CASA action should be viewed as highly suspicious.

 

Consider the following:

 

The Forsyth Report had been released, and it was quite critical of the previous (and temporarily then current) senior management ethic of a combative and unconsultative approach across the board with aviation in this country.

 

The departing (acting) DAS - a man known to be antipathetic to all forms of self-managing Sport aviation - was to be replaced by a new broom who had publicly committed himself to changing the culture at CASA, which by definition is an explicit repudiation of his predecessors.

 

The basis of the action contained no statement of a 'standard of performance' by which any manufacturer could rate its achievement ( and the use of one brand of engine as the 'baseline' for comparison is palpably idiotic: if we had a sudden rash of 912 engine failures in a short time, then it logically follows that to be consistent, CASA would have to apply the same sort of action).

 

Aero engines other than Jabirus, (e.g. converted auto engines) that have a demonstrably greater rate of failure than the 'baseline' 912 engines, were not subject to any action.

 

CASA continues to withhold public release of the 'evidence' on which they claim the action has been justified; as far as I am aware, the only circumstances in which it is considered justified to withhold evidence that apparently supports a government decision of action is National Security and this is most certainly not in that category.

 

There is no clear expression of any qualitative mechanism by which Jabiru can demonstrate that it has 'rectified' problems - be they clearly identified mechanical issues or more nebulous 'operational' issues ( and it is entirely obvious from the great disparity between the experience of individual owners and FTFs etc. that engine management often, though not exclusively, plays a significant role in overall reliability).

 

Remember that CASA can be sued for its actions. It cannot realistically come out and say: 'We got it wrong this time' - the potential for a class action is considerable and the loss of 'reputation' quite possibly incalculable.

 

However - if anybody were to tackle Ungermann at Avalon - it might be a good place to start, to ask him to justify the non-release of the 'evidence' and demand an answer of when this is to be made public. His answer to that might well be illuminating..

 

 

[facthunter]

Just signing a document from CASA doesn't mean you initiated it. Casa have made similar unbelievably weird statements before but NONE that affects a particular section of aviation as deeply as this does

 

I have had contacts with Lee in the past (not lately) and from my experience he has always behaved with integrity.

 

He is compromised by the position he is in now, and as the matter could be subject to litigation ( I am NOT stating it will).I wouldn't expect much light to be thrown on it from statements from him under those circumstances.

 

I don't think you will get a straight answer from any one at CASA unless they make a move of some kind. IF they are in consultation with either or both manufacturers it would be poor form to divulge information until the process is concluded. In the meantime you know how mushrooms grow.Nev

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

I am not expecting a favourable outcome for this mess in the near future.

 

CASA, by back peddling again too soon would have some explaining to do. By delaying the reinvestigation they, in my opinion will wait until most of the hype lessens.

 

I just hope that some real sense is the outcome.

 

Phil

 

 

[jetjr]

In the mean time theres a nice little expensive list of upgrades that need implementing

 

New flywheel bolts. Every 100 hrs with non approved props

 

Balance prop every 100 hrs

 

Max 6 month oil life irrespective of hours

 

New through bolts needng full rebuild at 500 hrs

 

Plenty need heads removal for inspection then ongoing inspections

 

 

[Camel]

Just signing a document from CASA doesn't mean you initiated it. Casa have made similar unbelievably weird statements before but NONE that affects a particular section of aviation as deeply as this doesI have had contacts with Lee in the past (not lately) and from my experience he has always behaved with integrity.

He is compromised by the position he is in now, and as the matter could be subject to litigation ( I am NOT stating it will).I wouldn't expect much light to be thrown on it from statements from him under those circumstances.

 

I don't think you will get a straight answer from any one at CASA unless they make a move of some kind. IF they are in consultation with either or both manufacturers it would be poor form to divulge information until the process is concluded. In the meantime you know how mushrooms grow.Nev

Nev, I have after much writing to CASA for an explanation and receiving much irrelevant bla bla received a response from Mr Ungerman, he doesn't answer much, says he doesn't have time, blames other parts of CASA and says there are still gathering data in other words trying to justify, lots of words with no real facts. I think legal action is CERTAIN to follow, also I will not let this go as it does and has effected all of sports aviation, currently I know of many things that sport aviation are directly responsible for. Like I said earlier I'm happy to share just PM your email to me and I will forward, but I will not post on web until all responses have been received and whether there is an outcome in sight. If CASA blame him clearly they become responsible for this mess and litigation is certain so I will keep trying to get the facts. If CASA defend their actions which has and is happening they will look for more data to justify their actions that will make litigation more difficult. This has become a waiting game I believe, if CASA lift the limitation and there are engine failures they will be happy, this is the time to keep pushing CASA for facts as they don't have them and are probably waiting for the ATSB results. If CASA had any brains they would blame sport aviation dept and dismiss them and help the industry instead of destroying. We can all say jabiru engines are no good but there aren't a lot of alternatives and Jabiru have been progressively upgrading their engines and in support the latest seem to be a big improvement and to put a blanket limitation on Jabiru engines is a bit strange, it has been said many solid lifter engines have been doing life times trouble free and engines from 2012 are better than early ones.

 

 

[jabiruken]

I had a conversation with a casa rep at a flyin over Christmas. I was sure surprised to hear him say that he loved his jabiru, and no it's not for sale. This fellow is in the new sports division working with lee..

 

 

[Guest john]

I had a conversation with a casa rep at a flyin over Christmas. I was sure surprised to hear him say that he loved his jabiru, and no it's not for sale. This fellow is in the new sports division working with lee..

Did the CASA rep say if he had a Jabiru hydraulic or tappet engine in the aircraft & was the airframe a factory or kit built airframe , because if a Camit/Jabiru engine is in the aircraft then these type engines are exempt from the CASA restriction.

A 24 registered Jabiru owner that has a Jabiru factory hydraulic engine in his aircraft & is now subject to the CASA restriction, recently stated that he has already had to replace the pistons & piston rings in the engine after about 300hrs T/T due to excessive oil consumption, including the gudgeon circlips, & it is still burning excess engine oil, & furthermore he has received information from Jabiru experts that if he had had a manual tappet engine in the aircraft he would not be experiencing the existing problems as he is having with the hydraulic tappet engine .

 

 

[jabiruken]

Did the CASA rep say if he had a Jabiru hydraulic or tappet engine in the aircraft & was the airframe a factory or kit built airframe , because if a Camit/Jabiru engine is in the aircraft then these type engines are exempt from the CASA restriction.A 24 registered Jabiru owner that has a Jabiru factory hydraulic engine in his aircraft & is now subject to the CASA restriction, recently stated that he has already had to replace the pistons & piston rings in the engine after about 300hrs T/T due to excessive oil consumption, including the gudgeon circlips, & it is still burning excess engine oil, & furthermore he has received information from Jabiru experts that if he had had a manual tappet engine in the aircraft he would not be experiencing the existing problems as he is having with the hydraulic tappet engine .

Sorry I did not ask, it was a 230 though. My 2200 solid lifter oil use is about 1/4 dipstick for every 1.5 hours, have been told that is excessive but has been that way since install 2001 with around 678 hours thus far

 

 

[biggles]

Does seem a little excessive , I'm guessing maybe 150 ml/hr . Any work/alterations done on the engine since 2001 and have you had a leakdown test done recently ....... Bob

 

 

[jabiruken]

Does seem a little excessive , I'm guessing maybe 150 ml/hr . Any work/alterations done on the engine since 2001 and have you had a leakdown test done recently ....... Bob

It has force fed distributors due to a bush failure at around 220 hrs, rockers replaced with .05 larger oil holes as abnormal wear was detected. Strangely tappets remained a constant and adjustment a rare requirement. I have higher oil consumption when cruising, I do have cool temps. No1 around 97 through to no 4 being 126. And oil hovering 75. Felt this cold state maybe cause of consumption, I run her 2800 rpm and have original jetting. Another odd thing is that it never needs choke. Have started in sub temps no problems (unlike my last 2200) and no leak down test. But will start as it is getting up in hours

 

 

[jetjr]

Are you filling to top mark?

 

For plenty this is way too full and they will pump the excess out

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Are you filling to top mark?For plenty this is way too full and they will pump the excess out

Even after changing the oil filter mine won't take two full quarts before exceeding the dipstick mark.

 

 

[jabiruken]

Are you filling to top mark?For plenty this is way too full and they will pump the excess out

Yes, it is about 2.200 ml. I will admit that I have been too lazy to top up as it was only a local flight. I am then surprised to find that it did not appear to use oil during that sortie.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Yes, it is about 2.200 ml. I will admit that I have been too lazy to top up as it was only a local flight. I am then surprised to find that it did not appear to use oil during that sortie.

A quart is smaller than a litre. That means my J2.2 only takes about 1.9 litres.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

If there is going to be a class action against CASA then count me in.

 

 

[jetjr]

Mine and others run just on the tip of the dipstick

 

Any more and ot gets pumped out

 

Excess oil makes them run hot oil temps too.

 

Id suggest if you run at the level seen after an hour of so flight oil use will be much lower.

 

Something you need to watch and be careful with

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

If there is going to be a class action against CASA then count me in.

Yes, I can't figure what is wrong with Jabiru - this whole affair is crying out for an immediate multi-million dollar claim against CASA. If Jabiru were smart they would hold out a can for contributions.

 

You can laugh at the tort-happy Yanks (and they are crazy in that way) but this sort of stunt - which really amounts to an open-ended ban on one company based on a vague opinion - would have resulted in a hefty lawsuit within days, and entirely justified from what I can see. This is the only way to get a recreant government departments to take notice. Of course even better would be to sue the individual responsible persons within CASA.