CASA 292/14 - Conditions and direction about Jabiru engines

[turboplanner]

In Jabiru's original 'defence' of their product, they claim to have, in conjunction with RAA, examined the proposed list and reduced the number of 'provens' down to 12 (from memory). I personally doubt that is anything like correct, and I suspect just about everybody else would be equally sceptical of that as being the true figure. However, there is a vast difference between 12 and 46, and if the CASA list is evidently padded, it is hard to draw any other conclusion than that CASA has placed itself in a combative position against Jabiru, which it is not entitled to do.

The Fat Lady has not even started to warm up her vocal chords on this one, but just perhaps she has now received the song-sheet.

Good luck with the project, and I would agree that this particular list is about as relevant to the issue as a song sheet.

 

I'd suggest that arguing over which items are correct and which are incorrect, is likely to produce an amended list.

 

I would be way more interested in who compiled that particular list.

 

 

[jetjr]

And here we are back at the start nearly 1000 posts ago, TP thinks Jabiru owners deserve the action and CASA have acted appropriately, presents the same old info thats been here before

 

Do you seriously think there was just 3 Rotax failures in nearly five years? - not talking just 912, but all types, the same as Jabiru numbers

 

CASA as any other publicly funded office has to act fairly and are open to action if it were found to be otherwise, let alone compensation if they did the wrong thing.

 

If the facts dont exist, dont care which regulation level they are at, they cannot act upon personal feelings without repercussions.

 

Once the real data they acted on it accessed, it seems far fewer failures than the action was based upon and therefore buisnesses and owners have a right to be upset about. - this roughly matches ATSB and RAA and other data packages.

 

The list was prepared by CASA???

 

 

[turboplanner]

And here we are back at the start nearly 1000 posts ago, TP thinks Jabiru owners deserve the action and CASA have acted appropriately, presents the same old info thats been here beforeDo you seriously think there was just 3 Rotax failures in nearly five years? - not talking just 912, but all types, the same as Jabiru numbers

CASA as any other publicly funded office has to act fairly and are open to action if it were found to be otherwise, let alone compensation if they did the wrong thing.

 

If the facts dont exist, dont care which regulation level they are at, they cannot act upon personal feelings without repercussions.

 

Once the real data they acted on it accessed, it seems far fewer failures than the action was based upon and therefore buisnesses and owners have a right to be upset about. - this roughly matches ATSB and RAA and other data packages.

 

The list was prepared by CASA???

Correct, the published statistics haven't changed.

 

What I think doesn't matter, the Rotax statistics were taken from the exact same RAA reports as the Jabiru statistics.

 

You can add Rotax two stroke/500cc - which have a 300 hour TBO if you wish, just go through the published statistics like I did.

 

CASA does have to discharge natural justice.

 

The numbers which have been bandied about seem to be getting people animated, but they are not the central issue, and even if there was a reconciliation to a jointly agreed number, what does that leave you with?

 

 

[Jaba-who]

........Snip snip snip .....The numbers which have been bandied about seem to be getting people animated, but they are not the central issue,

?

That's a stance TP has maintained from the beginning and one which the rest of us seem to completely disagree with.

 

It is not acceptable to apply the restrictions based on " some" events.

 

They must be on " some events per some number of hours " and you can't simply say " any number of events " because. Every brand of engine up to and including the Rolls Royce that powers the A 380 have had a failure or some failures in the last few years.

 

I bet not a single brand of engine has been without a failure somewhere in that time.

 

So they have to look at some statistic and have a bench mark for what are an acceptable number of failures.... So the numbers are important and in my opinion ARE the central issue.

 

 

[turboplanner]

That's a stance TP has maintained from the beginning and one which the rest of us seem to completely disagree with.It is not acceptable to apply the restrictions based on " some" events.

They must be on " some events per some number of hours " and you can't simply say " any number of events " because. Every brand of engine up to and including the Rolls Royce that powers the A 380 have had a failure or some failures in the last few years.

 

I bet not a single brand of engine has been without a failure somewhere in that time.

 

So they have to look at some statistic and have a bench mark for what are an acceptable number of failures.... So the numbers are important and in my opinion ARE the central issue.

What they have to do is comply with the requirements of any Acts which apply to them.

 

So far I haven't seen anyone post that "according to clause xx of the xx Act, CASA has to [insert your favourite statement]

 

 

[2tonne]

TP, I think that is what people want to see - CASA's legal justification for the action. So far, I can't see that any has been provided.

 

 

[jetjr]

If the facts are reconciled and agreed upon, the next step would be to see if the claims upon which the action was based upon hold true.

 

ie engine failures significant and increasing

 

There is an an unacceptable risk to public or pax in Jab powered aircraft

 

That they do or do not in fact have higher failure rate than an average of other manufacturers - this would require establishing acceptable levels.

 

Explain why action wasnt taken equally to others which fail to meet this benchmark.

 

 

[turboplanner]

TP, I think that is what people want to see - CASA's legal justification for the action. So far, I can't see that any has been provided.

There's nothing to stop you googling CASA's powers, then looking at 292/14 and deciding for yourself.

 

 

[turboplanner]

If the facts are reconciled and agreed upon, the next step would be to see if the claims upon which the action was based upon hold true.ie engine failures significant and increasing

There is an an unacceptable risk to public or pax in Jab powered aircraft

 

That they do or do not in fact have higher failure rate than an average of other manufacturers - this would require establishing acceptable levels.

 

Explain why action wasnt taken equally to others which fail to meet this benchmark.

Explanatories and Public Relations statements are just that.

 

BTW what happened to your engine?

 

 

[2tonne]

There's nothing to stop you googling CASA's powers, then looking at 292/14 and deciding for yourself.

You seem pretty knowledgeable about this, I thought you might be able to tell us.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Google: CASA Act

 

First thing that comes up is: Civil Aviation Act 1988 - Comlaw

 

 

[2tonne]

Google: CASA ActFirst thing that comes up is: Civil Aviation Act 1988 - Comlaw

 

 

[rhysmcc]

All CASA need to do is show that no one has died from a Jabiru Engine failure since this instrument was put into place. I don't agree with this, but as has been pointed out by many in the industry, their only focus is aviation safety. Not about supporting the industry or owners or recreational users. Until the Govt get behind the industry and make the changes to the Act that empowers CASA nothing within CASA will change.

 

 

[gandalph]

You seem pretty knowledgeable about this, I thought you might be able to tell us.

Ever tried nailing jelly to a tree?

 

 

[facthunter]

I'm concerned about this relating to jabiru but just as much as it relates to many engines which aren't as safe as The Jabiru is. Are the parameters (whatever they are) going to be applied consistently to others? Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

No fatalities since CASA acted! Where there any before they acted with jab engines? None in USA.

 

 

[Oscar]

You seem pretty knowledgeable about this, I thought you might be able to tell us.

Give over! - nobody takes Turbs seriously...

 

 

[rhysmcc]

No fatalities since CASA acted! Where there any before they acted with jab engines? None in USA.

Since when has the finer details come in the way of a good CASA story.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Give over! - nobody takes Turbs seriously...

That's probably more a reflection of you two; have either of you bothered to look up the Act, or find out who started this?

 

 

[Oscar]

Sunshine, I've known/worked with senior staff of/held authorisations from CASA / DoT/DCA ( in reverse order) including and since Dick Kingsland. Next silliness?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Fine, work it out for yourself then.

 

 

[facthunter]

I think a lot have. Nev

 

 

[Guest Ornis]

Just back for a quick catch-up.

 

Well that took two minutes.

 

Goodbye Jabiru engines and good riddance.

 

PS. Still steady in your faith, jetjr, or has your engine 'blown up'?

 

 

[jetjr]

No new news really - old campaigners started their same old recording.

 

No, old one still runs fine, just was looking at spending fair bit on it shortly - way too soon.

 

Decided to upgrade to new one rather than put money into old one.

 

Also Jab limitations being extended indefinitely pushed into decision too. Im maybe one of the few who have this choice to get away from this.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

My engine runs just fine and has done for 15 years now. It cost less than half as much a Rotax. And yes it had the cooling airflow tweaked. And it has been operated with a bit of care to keep well into the green CHT area. If you are too careless to do this, why not give up flying and watch football all weekend.

 

I am really angry that the government has used its power to attack one of the few Australian manufacturers left. And I'm even more angry to see that the CASA officials on the sport aviation group do not seem to have any proper engineering qualifications. Would you like to be operated on by people who were "qualified" by being in the hospital auxiliary club for years?

 

These officials are on a gravy train for the rest of their days.... no work to do, great power to wield, great safe salaries. They probably think we are stupid for not having similar government jobs.

 

I bet even Greece would not deliberately do something like this. I'm ashamed of them all, from the minister down to the CASA officials.