CASA 292/14 - Conditions and direction about Jabiru engines

[facthunter]

IF you say so dazza. But haven't we been disappointed before? Nev

 

 

[dazza 38]

IF you say so dazza. But haven't we been disappointed before? Nev

Sure, but aircooled engines sooner or later will become obsolete. The future will be as above and electric. Diamond aircraft have had their share of problems in the past but their latest incarnation seems to be going well.

 

 

[Oscar]

The only fault in that, is your gratuitous reference to Harley Boat anchors which you are treating in a way you resent Jabiru being treated. Modern HD's are right at the limit of aircooled reliable performance and have been higher quality , right through than non owners or people who don't work on them understand. I owned an ex Frank Musset 1947 1200 "U" model outfit that had done 350,000 MILES carrying other Harleys in a sidebox weighing so much two people couldn't carry the sidebox alone. The bike is still in excellent condition particularly notable is the frame which has no sign of any cracks whatever. I don't own it now. Nev

Nev - the efficacy of a boat anchor is (mostly) proportional to its mass... Traditional Harleys (even the EVOs) are not exactly overstressed. The XR-750s and I imagine the BotT ones, certainly punched to their weight. The Revolution in the V-rod pulls 100 bhp/litre, very respectable for an aircooled engine, I agree. However, they aren't featherweights....

 

 

[facthunter]

The V-Rod isn't aircooled. . My Buell 1200 is 103 HP with an auxiliary fan thermostatically controlled on the rear cylinder That's about the limit HP for these type pf motors from a cooling standpoint. The actual engines themselves are not particularly heavy. Some come with a gearbox in unit. The larger capacity ones bolt on.. With a direct drive you could take a lot of weight out of the flywheels as the prop will do the job for you.Nev

 

 

[Oscar]

Mea culpa, I've never taken much interest in Harley evolution... but I also don't run around screaming that they be banned...

 

 

[facthunter]

No the V Rod is different technology. The main reason aircooled motors have a problem is mechanical noise and intake noise. The requirements for road use are ridiculous. because most of these engines are mechanically very quiet I don't know how diesels make it.

 

Air cooling is simple, and basically foolproof if the installation is done well and of course the specific output HP/Cu in.) is limited. It is maintenance free apart from the seals on the air box where it meets the cowl. I would rather have a motor rumbling along than sounding like a mosquito. Direct drive is OK with the right engine design. It's all cost complexity and weight. People are entitled to a choice. The Jab is very light.. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

The main reason aircooled motors have a problem is mechanical noise and intake noise. The requirements for road use are ridiculous. because most of these engines are mechanically very quiet I don't know how diesels make it.

There are Australian Design Rules for interior and driveby noise FH, and all engines, including air-cooled make it. They were introduced to counter progressive loss of hearing, and by comparison today, aircraft engines are very noticeable.

Sooner or later someone is going to tip the bucket and descend on GA private and RA aircraft with pressure to quieten them down.

 

When they do, it should be reasonably easy to comply with the ADR drive-by noise level at any given point on almost any road except perhaps roads crossing runway climb out paths.

 

The ADR sets a noise emission limit from a vehicle under load at a certain distance from the vehicle. That is now Australia-wide.

 

Noise diminishes with distance.

 

So for example, if the ADR of the day specifies a driveby limit of 82 dbA 15 metres from the vehicle which coincides with the footpath, which might be 20 metres from the front of a dwelling, then it should be reasonable easy to show that an aircraft with open exhaust at 1500 feet will produce a lower noise level at those dwellings.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Yeah well you obviously have never owned or driven a 1983 Toyota Hilux fitted with a 4 speed manual that was revving its ring out on the highway at 110 kays an hour and have a engine that simply couldn't be revved any higher , it was at MAX RPM at 120 and I drove it at 120 for many contnuous hours.Believe what you want and I will believe what I think.

Recently a visiting senior engineer from Toyota was quite concerned when he was overtaken by a Hilux. He said its safe designed cruise speed is 80 km/h. The Corolla is 130.

 

 

[David Isaac]

............ He said its safe designed cruise speed is 80 km/h........

That wouldn't get you very far very quick on Aussie highways would it?

 

 

[facthunter]

Wouldn't be too popular with the other road users either. Nev

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

That wouldn't get you very far very quick on Aussie highways would it?

This is Oz. The authorities are happy to pick on tiny Jabiru for making an imperfect product, but they ignore huge corporations selling farm trucks as highway cruisers. She'll be right...until it isn't. Our rescue squad has attended a lot of 4WD rollovers causing major injuries. In one, most of a family was wiped out when a large 4WD got out of shape on a straight road.

 

 

[David Isaac]

I have seen many people over the years lose control of a simple sedan. Many People who rarely drive on highways and then load up their cars with the kids and gear have little idea how to react, avoid and recover and invariably in any emergency manoeuvre lose control of a simple car.

 

It happened 100 metres in front of me this morning on the M1. This poor woman spread her G6 Fairmont across three lanes with bits of metal, plastic and baggage across all three lanes.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I have seen many people over the years lose control...

We've all seen appalling drivers (everyone except me). Immigrants have their licence recognised in this country- even if was a bought one.

 

 

[turboplanner]

OK, next time you see a Hilux, take a look at the tyres and check the speed rating. It's Toyota's engineers who design for that speed and test for that speed for the Australian market.

 

If your story in not an urban myth/old wives tale, and I've worked with many product planners who run the engineering and design teams, occasionally someone is transferred from the Tokyo group to the Oceania group and makes a gaffe or two on his first visit.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

OK, next time you see a Hilux, take a look at the tyres and check the speed rating. It's Toyota's engineers who design for that speed and test for that speed for the Australian market.If your story in not an urban myth/old wives tale, and I've worked with many product planners who run the engineering and design teams, occasionally someone is transferred from the Tokyo group to the Oceania group and makes a gaffe or two on his first visit.

A gaffe? Please explain. I suspect that adapting a farm truck to highway cruiser involves a little more than special tyres.

 

 

[Oscar]

There are Australian Design Rules for interior and driveby noise FH, and all engines, including air-cooled make it. They were introduced to counter progressive loss of hearing, and by comparison today, aircraft engines are very noticeable.Sooner or later someone is going to tip the bucket and descend on GA private and RA aircraft with pressure to quieten them down.

When they do, it should be reasonably easy to comply with the ADR drive-by noise level at any given point on almost any road except perhaps roads crossing runway climb out paths.

 

The ADR sets a noise emission limit from a vehicle under load at a certain distance from the vehicle. That is now Australia-wide.

 

Noise diminishes with distance.

 

So for example, if the ADR of the day specifies a driveby limit of 82 dbA 15 metres from the vehicle which coincides with the footpath, which might be 20 metres from the front of a dwelling, then it should be reasonable easy to show that an aircraft with open exhaust at 1500 feet will produce a lower noise level at those dwellings.

There are - and have been for years - noise limits for certificated aircraft. The Sunbird Seeker (for example) is performance limited for take-off by noise limits and achieving those has been a major problem for the engineers. The major source of unacceptable noise is NOT the exhaust - which is easy to muffle - but prop noise.

 

 

[jetjr]

After a 8 engine failures in new 3.0D Hiluxes before 30,000km, around 2005, we had a tech team arrive from Japan

 

Spent a few days and declared ours was extreme duty as we drove over 80kmh on dusty dirt roads.

 

Their ~200km intense testing with many sensors, cameras, logging gear was all done around 60kmh on std far west NSW dirt roads. When questioned they indicated this was their recommended speed??

 

Fitted new air cleaner housings and left. New engines were covered under warranty.

 

Toyota Australia indicated it wasnt their issue anymore.

 

Needless to say the 40+ toyotas were traded over time and replaced with other makes.

 

Didnt expect as much from them as they were far cheaper.

 

 

[dazza 38]

I have seen many people over the years lose control of a simple sedan. Many People who rarely drive on highways and then load up their cars with the kids and gear have little idea how to react, avoid and recover and invariably in any emergency manoeuvre lose control of a simple car.It happened 100 metres in front of me this morning on the M1. This poor woman spread her G6 Fairmont across three lanes with bits of metal, plastic and baggage across all three lanes.

I see it at work when inexperience drivers swerve to miss kangaroos. Well more like city drivers driving in the bush. Drivers need to remember to brake but not to swerve, many people have died by swerving and rolling their vehicles. All our work vehicles are fitted with bullbars and side rails. The crusiers get a little bit damaged but nothing too major unless A- it was a big roo and B- the impact was at a good speed. The Hiluxes on the other hand normally come off with quarter panel damage when the bar comes back from the impact. Of course a lot of time, the dumb arse roos run head first into the quarter panels and doors and miss the Bull bar completely.

 

 

[Oscar]

Would it be at all possible to return this thread to its purpose? While I believe that Hiluxes have been designed in collaboration with the Chiropractic Association to maximise their profits and I have had far too many experiences with vehicalicidal 'Roos, neither of these fascinating topics of debate have the slightest to do with the CASA instrument regarding Jabiru engines.

 

 

[dazza 38]

After a 8 engine failures in new 3.0D Hiluxes before 30,000km, around 2005, we had a tech team arrive from JapanSpent a few days and declared ours was extreme duty as we drove over 80kmh on dusty dirt roads.

Their ~200km intense testing with many sensors, cameras, logging gear was all done around 60kmh on std far west NSW dirt roads. When questioned they indicated this was their recommended speed??

 

Fitted new air cleaner housings and left. New engines were covered under warranty.

 

Toyota Australia indicated it wasnt their issue anymore.

 

Needless to say the 40+ toyotas were traded over time and replaced with other makes.

 

Didnt expect as much from them as they were far cheaper.

Our work Landcruiser Utes cost us a lot more than the going retail price. I wont say on a public site but lets just say a Converted Ford F250 from Performax in Gympie isnt that much more expensive.The suspension is changed out for after market suspension. Normally either, Lovells, EFS or Iron Man. Steel tray with roll over protection built in. Water tank , tow bar, UHF radio. Bull bar, side rails with steel side steps. IVMS ( in vehicle monitoring system) We spend most of our time on dirt roads.

We have a Hilux that has broken off the left hand front shock mount only two weeks ago. We are only allowed to drive at 40 kph on unsealed roads.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Would it be at all possible to return this thread to its purpose? While I believe that Hiluxes have been designed in collaboration with the Chiropractic Association to maximise their profits and I have had far too many experiences with vehicalicidal 'Roos, neither of these fascinating topics of debate have the slightest to do with the CASA instrument regarding Jabiru engines.

Err sorry you are correct, OK back to the topic, don't swerve when landing your Jabiru in front of Roos, either go around or take them out with your propellor.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I think Dazza is right, you can't have a fool-proof air-cooled aero engine with the power to weight needed.

 

The old Volkswagens were held back in power and they were reliable then. Mind you, they sure sucked a lot of dust in, with their air intakes at the back in the dust.

 

My 2200a Jabiru engine is an early one with a 32mm carby, and it been completely reliable to date, with very few jobs required.

 

When I asked why I didn't need to change the flywheel bolts, I was told that my serial number batch had no history of flywheel-bolt problems.

 

I reckon that getting that bit more power by going to a 40mm carby was a bad idea. Why is it that these older engines, with their smaller flywheel and head bolts, don't give problems?

 

The only thing my engine needed was improved cylinder-head cooling, plus of course more careful operation than a water-cooled engine needs.

 

 

[ianboag]

Some philosophical points.

 

CASA regulates Type Certificates. If an engine passes the rules to get a TC, CASA's responsibilty stops there. If some people at CASA think the engine is mechanically unreliable, but it has passed the TC stuff, that is just too bad. The opinion of a CASA staffer is no better that yours or mine.

 

For example, noone keeps score on how many Lycs/Contis need a hone/ring before TBO etc.

 

The current action is effectively "reviewal/revocation of a TC" but not based on any of the criteria for getting a TC. Otherwise known as "making up the rules as we go" which is done "because we can". Madness. Effectively CASA have "cancelled" the TC with vague talk of unreliability - perhaps CASA will "reinstate" it one day with equally vague talk about things being better. Don't hold your breath - that would amount to CASA endorsement and expose CASA to liability if the fixes weren't. This whole thing makes a farce of the TC process.

 

It's a bit like eating sugar laden crap food which we know will make us fat and prone to diabetes etc. Because it is legal, eating it is a personal choice thing. Until it becomes illegal then the regulator has no place in this.

 

Like flying behind a Jabiru. As it happens - I chose not to continue doing this, but it was a personal choice.

 

The only rational thing for CASA to do here is to say something like "oops - we had no business doing this - our own rules have no provision for it". Then they should just apologise all over the place and shut up on the subject. Then the market will decide whether to (buy/upgrade to) Rodney's latest Type Certificated brain fart. IMO his track record is not all that flash, but it is not CASA's problem and CASA had no business being there so long as the TC is there.

 

 

[turboplanner]

That's a laugh Oscar, I think you are yet to move off engine ads to actually start discussing the instrument.

 

A gaffe? Please explain. I suspect that adapting a farm truck to highway cruiser involves a little more than special tyres.

Japanese have been one of the world's best marketers.

A typical model may have available to the country of destination four engine sizes, two manual transmissions, two automatic transmissions, a variety of suspensions, two axle standards, a variety of wheel and tyre sizes, two cabs with options from basic cardboard lining/speedo only, canvas on tube frame seats, up to moulded interior with all the options we see in Australia, manual and power steering, and painting with and with or without electrophoretic deposit.

 

So it can be than in Papua New Guinea The Make A, Model B would sell for $10,000 and in Australia for $50,000. They would look much the same in Australia, but be vastly different products.

 

Someone marketing the models in the Tokyo market would be selling the smallest engine, four speed manual trans, basic suspension just to carry a load, optioned up cab with moulded interior, power steering, smallest tyres, short wheelbase, and it would indeed run out of puff at 80 km/hr, but that would be as fast as was needed anyway. If it was a 4WD version, say for an Electricity Company, there would be no changes to the driveline/suspension etc (other than drive to the front axle), because the only off-road condition they need to cope with is loss of traction in snow.

 

Australia usually takes the biggest engine, heaviest driveline, six speed auto and five speed manual transmissions, diff ratios for out 100 km/hr roads, suspensions, anti roll torsion bars, tyres etc for those speeds.

 

So the Tokyo guy who has just been airlifted to Melbourne to go out to Emerald to resolve an issue may well make some comments that we would see as silly, in his first day or so, but if he is transferred here for three years, I guarantee you by the end of year one he is awake to every dodgy claim an Australian can invent.

 

 

[turboplanner]

For example, noone keeps score on how many Lycs/Contis need a hone/ring before TBO etc.

This is a simplification I agree, but you can extract the forced landings by model from the ATSB reports, and I'd suggest the results will not indicate any need to be limiting those operations.

 

What most people are missing here is that you can have TC, but if CASA identify a safety issue, CASA have a legal duty of care like anyone else to address it; they can be sued crash by crash if they don't.

 

I have no information from DIRD but from what I've read on these engine threads, I suspect the certification process for aircraft might be starting to move towards what it uses for other forms of transport, and if that does happen then your suggestion of "making the rules go away" then "reinstating" them wouldn't exist, and the whole process would be based on Performance Standards with the manufacturers and operators demonstrating compliance in a two part (high volume production, low volume production) system, and bearing the costs, and a Recall system. This is the method we have in the automotive section, and it's a lot simpler and seems to work a lot better.