CASA 292/14 - Conditions and direction about Jabiru engines

[geoffreywh]

hmmmmm................ Someone should put Shine and co., right on points one and two. They look like normal RAA operating procedures to me....

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Shine will bleed Jabiru dry trying to win this.

 

 

[Oscar]

That article - really, an advertisement - contains the first ever putative date for the lifting of the restrictions that I have seen and I don't believe that CASA has ever made any such actual indication. As far as I am aware, all we have had from CASA amounts to fairly nebulous comments that can be summed up as 'a work in progress' and CASA has not - at any stage - indicated any metric by which they could justify lifting the restriction. I believe that Shine's commentary is at least in part designed to instill a sense of urgency amongst Jabiru engine owners to embark on some form of legal action.

 

In fact, CASA's action has presented itself with something of a Gordian Knot, for reasons which have been discussed at great length here. In that respect, I do believe that Shine has some justification for suggesting that there is no guarantee that the restrictions may be lifted at the end of June. Anecdotal information (from a well-informed source) suggests that some in CASA senior management are well aware of the situation in which it has been placed by its own rush to judgement and are not at all happy with the situation.

 

While it is blindingly obvious that CASA's action has done almost certainly tangible financial damage to FTFs and line-hire operators of Jabiru-powered aircraft, and probably less directly intangible damage to the value of Jabiru-powered aircraft, recourse to precipitate legal action may well not be the best first-line of offense. I believe that it would be a better course of action to at least first pursue with CASA any available lines of remediation of the situation by way of developing responses that actually repair the damage done. Simply threatening to hit CASA with massive legal action is fairly unlikely to achieve a negotiated solution(s); it is more likely to cause CASA to retreat to a 'hold the line' position.

 

I suggest that a better strategy overall, is for everybody to pause, work with RAA and others to achieve permanent resolution of the restrictions problem - then those who have good arguments to seek recompense for their losses, can take action. I recognise that this strategy provides very little comfort to operators who have been forced towards / into the wall by CASA's action in the short-term, but at the best of times legal action grinds exceeding slow and it is unlikely that a legal action even started tomorrow will have any useful effect on speeding up the resolution of the current situation - and may well be short-term counter-productive.

 

 

[Oscar]

Shine will bleed Jabiru dry trying to win this.

Jabiru isn't currently and is highly unlikely to ever be using Shine - it is using Spencer Ferrier, who runs rings around anybody Shine can put on the case.

 

 

[jetjr]

Seeing as Jabiru have now got almost all FTF aircraft having full rebuild at 500 hrs, surely its time for CASA to review

 

Who is holding it up.?

 

 

[Camel]

Geoffreywh ! Have you ever read the Jabiru limitation, ops manual or 95.55 . Not all Jabs are RAA registered, some are NVFR and some RAA members have PPL and fly in CTA. What's wrong with point 1 & 2 ? How does this effect you ? If you want something to do read this http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2015L00228.

 

 

[jetjr]

They havent asked the key questions regarding the data and where is it? Appear to be assuming the action is justified just not the assessment of impact. They also indicate the action will be effective.

 

 

[Guest john]

Now that the Lawyers have been engaged by the Jabiru crew, you can bet your bottom dollar that CASA have instructed their own Lawyers to prepare for a Court challenge which of course all of us little people in Australia will be paying for whether we like it or not, where as the Jabiru crew have to fund their own legal costs unless they eventually win if the matter is to be brought before the Courts for determination .

 

Once the Lawyers for the Jabiru crew lodge the formal documentation with the Court for this matter, it would be in the interests of the Jabiru crew for their Lawyers to exercise the Courts powers of DISCOVERY of all of CASA'S information relating to the reasons why CASA have taken the overeacting procedures that it has with respect to this issue & eventually if this matter is not resolved satisfactorily between Jabiru & CASA & has to go to trial, then Jabiru's Lawyers should SUBPEONA CASA to produce all of their relevant documentation to the Court.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

If I was to say that Lawyer X is engaged by Company Y, then that simply means that Lawyer X works for Company Y at the time of the statement (and on further investigation probably for some significant time past....) , nothing more, or less. Assuming that the statement means Y has asked X to undertake litigation is a vastly different statement and a presumption they are the same will lead to disappointment......in my opinion

 

 

[gandalph]

If I was to say that Lawyer X is engaged by Company Y, then that simply means that Lawyer X works for Company Y at the time of the statement (and on further investigation probably for some significant time past....) , nothing more, or less. Assuming that the statement means Y has asked X to undertake litigation is a vastly different statement and a presumption they are the same will lead to disappointment......in my opinion

Very true Andy, but how do you expect Forumites to get their exercise if they stop jumping to conclusions?

 

 

[Camel]

Now that the Lawyers have been engaged by the Jabiru crew, you can bet your bottom dollar that CASA have instructed their own Lawyers to prepare for a Court challenge which of course all of us little people in Australia will be paying for whether we like it or not, where as the Jabiru crew have to fund their own legal costs unless they eventually win if the matter is to be brought before the Courts for determination .Once the Lawyers for the Jabiru crew lodge the formal documentation with the Court for this matter, it would be in the interests of the Jabiru crew for their Lawyers to exercise the Courts powers of DISCOVERY of all of CASA'S information relating to the reasons why CASA have taken the overeacting procedures that it has with respect to this issue & eventually if this matter is not resolved satisfactorily between Jabiru & CASA & has to go to trial, then Jabiru's Lawyers should SUBPEONA CASA to produce all of their relevant documentation to the Court.

I see you fly a piper Comanche and it seems you want to jump to conclusions and make misleading statements, are you interested at all in RAA or Jabiru owners or Flight Training Facilities ? Stick to your Comanche.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

I see you fly a piper Comanche and it seems you want to jump to conclusions and make misleading statements, are you interested at all in RAA or Jabiru owners or Flight Training Facilities ? Stick to your Comanche.

I read John's post. I'd be interested to know what misleading statements he made and what conclusions he jumped to. Just a bit of harmless speculation I would have thought. What does it matter what he flies, or what you fly, we are all pilots.

 

 

[Camel]

I read John's post. I'd be interested to know what misleading statements he made and what conclusions he jumped to. Just a bit of harmless speculation I would have thought. What does it matter what he flies, or what you fly, we are all pilots.

Firstly CASA have attacked RAA and Jabiru owners and flight schools as I see it not just Jabiru.

 

. I posted for the benefit of Jabiru owners and Flight schools.

 

. lawyers were not engaged by Jabiru.

 

. CASA have done what ? What a load of dreamed up garbage. This is a disgraceful stupid statement that only a person who didn't care about the real facts would make. (Most likely the enemy)

 

. What he flies is a GA plane, he does not appear to fly RAA planes, I fly GA and RAA. I am insulted by GA pilots who think RAA is inferior or not real aircraft. I'm not bagging GA pilots only the knockers.

 

. I have chased a lot of information, there is no legal action in progress, there is inquiries and more information being sought. RAA has put in a FOI as per newsletter.

 

. John has jumped to conclusions and invented scenarios and this is helping no one, this is totally misleading.

 

. I am very reluctant to give any more information or help on this site due to people interfering with stupid and crazy assumptions that ruins it for people this involves and concerns.

 

. Should any legal action take place it would need to be determined if it would be beneficial or damaging to the future of RAA and it's members, I think legal action of any kind would be off the table until CASA decide their future actions relating to the issues.

 

. My post was not for the entertainment of the exaggerators or harmless speculators. I would not dream of writing the crap he did and if you think harmless speculation is what he said you are seriously wrong.

 

.legal people have said ....

 

What can we do for those affected?

 

We encourage any flying training organisations or aviation organisation faced with adverse economic and business outlooks, due to this legislative instrument, to share their story with us.

 

The Shine Lawyers Aviation Department is investigating the potential legal remedies which may be sought from various parties arising from the way these safety risks have been dealt with, and is looking at a range of options for operators who have suffered losses.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Firstly CASA have attacked RAA and Jabiru owners and flight schools as I see it not just Jabiru.. I posted for the benefit of Jabiru owners and Flight schools.

. lawyers were not engaged by Jabiru.

 

. CASA have done what ? What a load of dreamed up garbage. This is a disgraceful stupid statement that only a person who didn't care about the real facts would make. (Most likely the enemy)

 

. What he flies is a GA plane, he does not appear to fly RAA planes, I fly GA and RAA. I am insulted by GA pilots who think RAA is inferior or not real aircraft. I'm not bagging GA pilots only the knockers.

 

. I have chased a lot of information, there is no legal action in progress, there is inquiries and more information being sought. RAA has put in a FOI as per newsletter.

 

. John has jumped to conclusions and invented scenarios and this is helping no one, this is totally misleading.

 

. I am very reluctant to give any more information or help on this site due to people interfering with stupid and crazy assumptions that ruins it for people this involves and concerns.

 

. Should any legal action take place it would need to be determined if it would be beneficial or damaging to the future of RAA and it's members, I think legal action of any kind would be off the table until CASA decide their future actions relating to the issues.

 

. My post was not for the entertainment of the exaggerators or harmless speculators. I would not dream of writing the crap he did and if you think harmless speculation is what he said you are seriously wrong.

 

.legal people have said ....

 

What can we do for those affected?

 

We encourage any flying training organisations or aviation organisation faced with adverse economic and business outlooks, due to this legislative instrument, to share their story with us.

 

The Shine Lawyers Aviation Department is investigating the potential legal remedies which may be sought from various parties arising from the way these safety risks have been dealt with, and is looking at a range of options for operators who have suffered losses.

Camel, you should read his post again. I think he is on your side not CASA's. It was another poster who said Jabiru are using Spencer Ferrier lawyers (post #630). John's post reads to me that if Jabiru and CASA meet in court, Jabiru will be able to demand to see why CASA have taken this ridiculous action. Anyway, I hope sanity prevails and aviation and Jabiru survive and prosper.

 

 

[SDQDI]

It is very hard to know what to do without all the facts/numbers. Would it at all be possible that CASA haven't put all the numbers out because of legal action from jab?

 

 

[geoffreywh]

Dear Mr. Camel , Pull your head in.....Thank you

 

 

[jetjr]

no one has said ANYONE is taking legal action on the issue, including Jabiru.

 

Think John and Others seem to think they are

 

 

[Oscar]

It is very hard to know what to do without all the facts/numbers. Would it at all be possible that CASA haven't put all the numbers out because of legal action from jab?

If by that comment, you mean that Jab. has taken out some sort of injunction to prevent CASA releasing the numbers ( and those numbers may well be fairly meaningless if not accompanied by at the very least a description of the actual 'event': 'engine failure' by itself is a useless description, so let's call the information CASA holds as 'the data'), then I suspect the answer is 'no' - based on post #584, for instance. It would be strange for CASA reps. to say: 'we know stuff but we aren't going to tell you', rather than saying 'we can't tell you because we are barred from so doing', surely?

 

CASA has nailed its colours to the mast based on 'the numbers' justifying the action. It doesn't make any sense for CASA to retreat behind a veil of 'we know best, trust us' if it has what it evidently considers to be the data justifying the action. That would be the archetypical type of 'we're from the Government and we're here to help' comment, and even Public Servants know that that's an untenable position to hold.

 

I believe there are only two possible situations for NOT releasing the data (unless you are correct that Jab. has taken out an injunction).

 

The first is: the data CASA holds actually demonstrate that the action was inappropriately milder than the situation demands - i.e. CASA has under-reacted to the situation and has not acted in the best interest of public safety. IF this is the case, then for Jabiru to have taken legal action to suppress the release of the data, it is doing CASA a favour.

 

The RAA FOI request for official release of the data (and remember, a few of the Board and presumably the Tech Manager have seen the data in confidence so presumably have weighed up the consequences of airing the data for all to see) would - if the first possibility were the case - mean in all likelihood a demand for greater restriction on Jabiru powered aircraft. That does not to me seem consistent with all of the RAA communications to date on the matter.

 

The second possibility is that open examination of the data would indicate that the CASA action was NOT decently justified - which would certainly open CASA up to potential legal consequences - most of which have been discussed at length on this forum and don't need repeating. If this is - and I believe on the balance of probability, it IS the case - then Jabiru would be actually denying itself recourse to legal remedy if it were to take action to suppress the release of the data.

 

We may well get a strong indication of which of these two possibilities is correct by seeing what CASA's response to the RAA FOI is. If they claim 'sub judice' status for it, then there is a real likelihood Jabiru has indeed taken some legal action.

 

 

[facthunter]

IF the data has a significant and real safety aspect, there is no reason for ANY party to not make it available, in the circumstances where the aircraft/engines are still flying. The longer this goes the less faith I have in it having been done in the right way. Nev

 

 

[Powerin]

Call me an idiot.... but I have just read through all the 33 pages here in the spirit of discovery. I don't own any aircraft. I admit I have a negative view of Jab engines gleaned through a lot of reading, some perhaps biased, but am always willing to be swayed by new evidence.

 

This thread has gone on a lot of tangents. I get that CASA is like many Govt departments and has various fiefdoms within it all vying for relevance and power (after all, the relevant and the powerful are the ones who get the funding). I agree that CASA's actions are counterproductive.

 

However, suddenly in this thread there was a time when fellow Jab owners started discussing oil usage, blow-by and various methods of modifying the engine for catching oil and preventing it going out over the aircraft. Another was having to enlarge oil feed holes to prevent wear. Now, I know that the one of the basic tenets of Recreational Aviation is the ability to experiment and modify. But really, a discussion on catching oil and enlarging oil feeds is something I'd expect to see in a discussion about a Gipsy Major engine or some first generation experimental engine rather than a mature modern technology aero engine from a reputed manufacturer. If you were me which camp would you put Jab engines in....experimental or (certified) mature technology?

 

Secondly, I don't know what evidence CASA is basing their action on. But step back and have a look at CASA's own service difficulties and reports on piston engines for the past 5 or more years. I assume these are contributed in good faith. In amongst the heaps of reports about Lycs and Contis you will find 5-10 reports or more about Jab engines every year. Look closely at the causes of engine failures in Jabs according to failure causes for all other engines. Be honest, if you were somebody looking at those reports for the first time, can you identify a trend? Would it raise question marks in your mind that there is a specific problem?

 

I don't know if this adds or detracts from the discussion. Feel free to flame me. I try to be balanced. One day I will decide which aero engine I will own and fly behind. Based on this thread which would you choose?

 

 

[JEM]

Hi Powerin.

 

CASA's own service difficulties and reports on piston engines for the past 5 or more years appears to be password protected.

 

 

[coljones]

try here

 

http://sdr.casa.gov.au/sdronline/REPORTS/REPORTVIEWER.ASPX?TRANCD=RPTVWR

 

or here

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_90818

 

I suspect that these are all GA planes as there are no Rotax, modified VW, Subaru engines mentioned in the quick flip through I did OR there is massive underreporting in the RAA fleet.

 

 

[jetjr]

No doubt. A problem but equal accross makes

 

A key component of CASA's ruling is not that there is a problem it is that one brand is worse than another

 

Next the numbers discussd dont match the numbers from either RAA or Jabiru and includes runway incursions and fuel starvations

 

Another issue is lumping all Jabiru engine in the same restriction when there are clearly differences in failure rates between models and usages of engines

 

 

[Powerin]

I don't know the origin of the CASA SD reports (I guess submitted voluntarily?), but I often browse through them because it is an interesting cross-section of all engine and airframe faults. The Jabs reported are mostly RAAus registered according to the notes in each report. Yes, there are rarely any other RAA style engines. One was an HKS.

 

It's just another source of data that CASA may have taken note of in this debacle, and when you compare Jabs to other engines, even in the small samples of Jabs, there is a trend of specific faults which often caused (according to the reports) forced landings. Browsing through other engine types most faults are not catastrophic and were picked up on the ground. Comparing Lycs and Contis the Continentals seem to have more than their fair share of cracked cylinders or crankcases.

 

 

[JEM]

Re the CASA SD reports held under http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_90818

 

Of the total of 5 Jabiru engine "failures" I can find reported on the CASA list of 114 prop engine failures in 2014, three failures are claimed as engine, one failure claimed as ring gear and one as fuel pump.

 

Only one Jab failure is listed on the CASA SD list for 2015 so far.