CASA 292/14 - Conditions and direction about Jabiru engines

[Old Koreelah]

Fuel injection is looking more attractive...

 

 

[facthunter]

Well nothing's changed. Mechanical fuel injection. (Simple drip system) came out in the 60's and reduction/ elimination of carb icing is a good feature. Gami injectors make more accurate "tuning" of the flows. A plane engine does not have to stop and start like a car does. Manual leaning to a chart figure, flowmeter or EG temp indication is adequate and reliable. No electrical power dependency. Nev

 

 

[jetjr]

The one I saw was single carb on 4 cyl and double on 6 cyl. It was a long time ago too.

 

Apparantly single bing is running near max airflow on the 3300 anyway

 

The setup pictured is r&d version id say, the next version was being buiilt and looked pretty nice

 

Still stuck with long shared runner each side though but cant get around that without port injection

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Temperatures on my 2.2 are fairly even, so presumably the variation in fuel delivery to each pot is tolerable.

 

The only thing I did was ensure the incoming air had a very straight path, starting with air filter between my feet. The rest is luck.

 

My old BMW K75 has super-reliable low pressure fuel injection. Jabiru might solve a lot of problems with such a system.

 

 

 

[Oscar]

The only thing I did was ensure the incoming air had a very straight path, starting with air filter between my feet. The rest is luck.

Luck, nothing - intelligent planning.

 

 

[jetjr]

There is a bolt on mech system, precision airmotive in us?

 

 

[Camel]

I enjoyed this video although not all correct I don't think ! Pretty much sums it up and as the applicant for the FOI it seems very funny that on the other side of the world they know the story. Enjoy this video.

 

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I heard on the grapevine that Jab 2200 engines were only good for 550 hours.

 

 

[cooperplace]

I heard on the grapevine that Jab 2200 engines were only good for 550 hours.

seriously, could you be more vague? You know about engines: can you offer any more details?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

seriously, could you be more vague? You know about engines: can you offer any more details?

Just trolling Bruce Mate

 

550 hour old jab going fine

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I've been reading Mike Busch who says all this hours business is dead wrong and only GA still follows such a demonstrably faulty system. The basis of the fallacy is the intuitive but wrong idea that all parts start out reliable, but then become unreliable as time passes. He says that while a small number parts are indeed like this, more parts suffer from "infant mortality" and actually become more reliable as time passes. Then there is the risk of introducing a fault by unnecessary "invasive maintenance".

 

Busch does NOT call for neglectful maintenance, but for smarter "reliability-centered" maintenance. It was this stuff which convinced me to do better instrumentation.

 

I hope the Bex plane will take a Jabiru motor. The only things I know which have come out of Austria are Hitler, Schwartzenegger and Rotax engines.

 

 

[SDQDI]

The only things I know which have come out of Austria are Hitler, Schwartzenegger and Rotax engines.

Austria puts Australia to shame when it come to manufacturing, it is well worth a google to see just how much stuff they actually produce.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Hitler, Schwartzenegger and Rotax engines.

Niki Lauda and KTM are the other biggies.

 

 

[Bats]

The only things I know which have come out of Austria are Hitler, Schwartzenegger and Rotax engines.

As the man said; "Two out of three ain't bad"

 

 

[turboplanner]

I've been reading Mike Busch who says all this hours business is dead wrong and only GA still follows such a demonstrably faulty system. The basis of the fallacy is the intuitive but wrong idea that all parts start out reliable, but then become unreliable as time passes. He says that while a small number parts are indeed like this, more parts suffer from "infant mortality" and actually become more reliable as time passes. Then there is the risk of introducing a fault by unnecessary "invasive maintenance".Busch does NOT call for neglectful maintenance, but for smarter "reliability-centered" maintenance. It was this stuff which convinced me to do better instrumentation.

I hope the Bex plane will take a Jabiru motor. The only things I know which have come out of Austria are Hitler, Schwartzenegger and Rotax engines.

I see we have at last reached Godwin's Law.

 

He's pulling your leg Bruce.

 

If we just focus on engines, when considering whole of life costs, some components such as air and oil filters, and some seals and gaskets are considered as "Consumables" to be replaced at every service.

 

The next line are parts with a predictable life cycle, such as timing belts, bearings, sleeves, bushes, pistons, rings etc.

 

The next line up are such as sub-assemblies which hold the above parts, which may well improve with age and outlast the engine

 

Some of the last have wear surfaces, which wear predictably and can be reground and fitted with oversized parts, or sleeved back to standard size.

 

As an engine lives through its work life, all those cycles are repeating, and the parts and services are rejuvenating the engine.

 

Where you have your own workshop data coming in, you can carry out an ongoing analysis, and usually predict quite accurately the life cycle costs, and the expected life of the engine.

 

In some cases, the engine manufacturer has managed to design an engine life which is long enough that it's affordable to just pull the old engine out and scrap it, fitting a new one in its place. This particularly applies in the case of applications where downtime cost is high, and dollars saved in fast changeover offset the cost of the new engine.

 

I have not seen, on this forum, anyone mention this process; just comments about short term events and failures.

 

Because of the rough and ready maintenance procedures of untrained service technicians, some components which haven't been touched can last longer that others which have been distorted when levering out, or hammering and overtightening during the service process, but you can't just apply that cross the board, blackening the names of qualified service technicians.

 

 

[Oscar]

Austria puts Australia to shame when it come to manufacturing, it is well worth a google to see just how much stuff they actually produce.

Yes, that is true. And New Zealand puts us to shame for its carbon fibre expertise ( with the exception of McConaghy, arguably the best in the world if you want an ultra-competitive, mega-$$ racing yacht - or bits for the Space Shuttle).

 

But: be fair. Rotax are owned by Bombadier.. a multi-billion $$ turnover company, that makes some of the best 'second-level' commuter jets. Rotax ( Bombadier) makes the most-sold LSA class engine, by a huge margin. But can you buy a Bombadier-produced LSA class aircraft with a Bombadier engine installed?. ( Hint: the answer is NOT yes.)

 

Textron, another multi-billion $$ turnover company, owns Lycoming and Cessna. The two largest - I think - numbers of engines and aircraft produced - at least in piston engines and light-medium aircraft. But can you buy (now) a new Textron manufactured LSA-class aircraft with a Lycoming installed? ( Hint: the answer is NOT yes.)

 

There is only one company in the world - as far as I am aware - that pushes out the factory doors an LSA-class aircraft complete with an engine that it makes.

 

You know who that company is. And it's not far from you, you can fly /drive there within one day for your parts - every parts...

 

And, it sells all over the world.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Turbs, there is good stuff in what you said, but the Waddington success was not about stopping ham-fisted idiots from doing damage. It was about stopping unnecessary work. If a satisfactory state of affairs is disturbed, then you risk trouble.

 

Surely nobody can disagree with the idea of "on condition" replacement and the measuring of "condition" by non-invasive means.

 

Take hoses as an example. They have a life for sure, and their condition needs to be monitored so that they are replaced before deterioration causes any problems. But a newly-replaced hose might have a flaw or there might be some other problem, as shown by the Jabiru that landed on the Stuart Highway some years ago.

 

If you are making mandatory component life rules for everybody, you will assume the worst case situation and specify a very short replacement interval which exacerbates the teething-troubles risk without any benefit when compared with the alternative of replacing hoses when early signs of deterioration become evident.

 

 

[cooperplace]

Just trolling Bruce Mate 550 hour old jab going fine

OK, I get it.

I'm a bit like Bruce: I was flying the jab this morning, and as usual, it didn't miss a beat.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

There is only one company in the world - as far as I am aware - that pushes out the factory doors an LSA-class aircraft complete with an engine that it makes.

Quite a few don't recognise that fact, many people are surprised to learn you buy your plane then you buy your engine as a separate item - obviously many companies do a package.

 

However Great Plains in America are also there, you might debate the details though as theirs is a VW based engine.

 

As the man said; "Two out of three ain't bad"

What's wrong with Arnie??

 

 

[SDQDI]

But: be fair. Rotax are owned by Bombadier.. a multi-billion $$ turnover company, that makes some of the best 'second-level' commuter jets. Rotax ( Bombadier) makes the most-sold LSA class engine, by a huge margin. But can you buy a Bombadier-produced LSA class aircraft with a Bombadier engine installed?. ( Hint: the answer is NOT yes.)

I wasn't referring to rotax and yes Jab should be proud that of what they have achieved, I was actually genuinely surprised at how many things come from Austria. I guess it stands out a bit more when you consider that our car makers are disappearing and we seem to be going backwards as a whole in a manufacturing sense but it is well worth a google trip to explore just how many recognisable brands come from there.

 

 

[Camel]

Back in the 70's I worked on and operated Bombardier Ski-Doo snowmobiles, (also groomers, Muskeg carriers and buses)! there were problems but were better than evinrudes but when the Yamaha came alone it put them all to shame a very fast and reliable machine, a real hard act to beat ! So the point is, you got to start somewhere and when the competition improves you got to keep up or give up. The old Bomdardier buses came along in Australia around 1968, they had a Chrysler 318 V8 with three on the tree, in 1977 a new one showed up with auto, LSD plus power steering oh and 2 speed wipers and a powerful heater ! Luxury ! Bombardier also build snow grooming machines, the early Bombardier Jumbos did a good job but not as good as the competitors as they were too heavy, the competitors were Thickol ( made by LMC! DMC later Deloren ) and the Kassborher (Setra), Bombardier introduced the Yeti and not quite good enough as had track problems but then they introduced the BR400 and that was the ultimate grooming machine and led the way ! I drove my first BR400 in Jasper Canada in 1985 and was very impressed it could outclimb all without doubt ! and I have driven them all ! They picked all the best features of the grooming machines and put it in the Bombardier BR400 and it led the way. So I have watched the company develope over many years but I think the competition is essential to improve the product ! I like the Jabiru ! It may not be the best but that's my choice ! As far as snow groomers I liked the Kassborher as it was very comfortable and a pleasure to spend long hours in, I would say it was built for the operator ! The Bombardier BR400 was built to do the job others couldn't do, it's climb ability was hard to beat ! I don't know what's happening in the ski industry these days as I left it years ago.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

but when the Yamaha came alone it put them all to shame a very fast and reliable machine, a real hard act to beat !

A little recognised fact is that Yamaha publically shared all their 2 stroke technical information with the world for the greater good of the industry as a whole. Their expansion chamber and big and small end roller bearing knowledge made 2 strokes what they are today. Very unusual for a Japanese company to do that, but in the end by making 2 strokes fast and reliable and creating a larger market, they profited handsomely - excellent business decision.

 

 

[facthunter]

Yamaha are more than slightly involved with musical instruments. Their Trademark is 3 tuning forks at 120 degrees. Their engine developments have been incorporated in other brands as well. This country has had a war on science for years now so you get results that reflect that stupidity. Nev

 

 

[Olav]

Look the jury is back. The verdict is. That stuff shouldn't go near the engine. If you don't like "Oily belly" empty the grunge out of the bottle and keep your plane clean by all means but don't contaminate your engine oil. Your engine is a precision bit of gear and water (even PURE water) is no good for it. That is why you try to get your oil temps at 85 degrees or a bit more to evaporate the water out of the oil. Nev

Hello. I cannot see why the oil "spray" coming out with the by-pass gas, should be more contaminated than the oil that stays inside the engine. All the oil inside the engine will be contaminated evenly by the by-pass gas. Look at the Rotax 912 engines. They have got dry sump and a combined oil tank and oil/gas separator. The by-pass gas is blowing the oil from the dry sump to the tank, where the oil and gas is separated. (Blowing the oil with the by-pass gas should really contaminated the oil if the contamination theory were true). The separated oil goes with the rest of the oil back to the oil pump and is being fed to the engine. The now oil free gas goes out through the outlet at the top of the tank and out through a hose. Rotax 912 has got double oil volume and double hours between oil change compared to Jabiru, so basically same amount of oil per hour. What I know the oil consumption might be sligthly lower on the Rotax 912 compared to Jabiru 2200. My Storch HS with Jabiru 2200 has got a special oil separator that will lead the separated oil back to the dip stick tube and into the engine. The separator was made by the Flysynthesis factory and it works very well. I am sure it is better to secure the oil stays in the engine during long distance flights, and then maybe change the oil a bit more often.

 

 

[facthunter]

I stick with what I've said and it's backed up by a lot of experience over time, with a lot of people.. If you allow the water to condense anywhere and it runs back into the engine it's a BAD idea. One litre of hydrocarbon fuel makes much more than one litre of water. You try to run the oil temps to at least 85 degrees in flight to try to stop water staying in the oil making the oil cloudy and very acidic. Corrosion is common in aero engines so anything you can do to reduce it is worthwhile. Nev