Yenn Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 As a veteran English soldier I am always amazed that we won 2 world wars. With the quality of our officers it was only the NCOs an roops that did the work. The officers were pretty hopeless.
facthunter Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Excellent and honorable person. Under the circumstances. Nev
Geoff13 Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Rommel was ok but he copied several other far smarter German Generals. Admittedly he took their ideas and improved on them. As for Yenn's comment I was always of the firm belief the Sargents were the backbone of the Australian Defence Force. I believed that when I was a digger, I believed it when I was a Corporal and I still believed it when I had passed through that glorious rank and was a Warrant Officer.
Old Koreelah Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Whoa there Old Koreelah! While Churchill is given the blame for the Dardanelles campaign he can't be blamed for its poor execution. All the Allied front line forces (English, Dominion,including Indian, and not the least the French) made remarkable gains on he first day, but it was the timidity and lack of fighting spirit of the British OIC that caused the stalemate by not letting the troops continue their advances over the top of inferior numbers of Turkish troops. After that, these British Generals, none of whom had fought a battle before, forced the troops into suicidal attacks.Consider the Second Battle of Krithia. Ever heard of it? Doubt it. It was fought on the 8/9 May 1915 as a combined British-Dominion-French attack on a village strongly held by the Turks. Australian troops, who had just marched into the bivouac area near the battle field after moving from Anzac Cove, were given 30 minutes to prepare to join the battle. The Australian commanders wanted to wait until dark so they could move up to the front lines more safely, but the British Generals demanded an advance over open ground in daylight. Needless to say, the Turks cut the advancing troops to pieces with machine guns. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Krithia Churchill was not directly responsible for the Dardanelles failure. It was the British Military class system that should be held responsible. The overall concept of the Dardanelles campaign was militarily sound, and given adequate equipment and better leadership, it would have been a great success. As for Churchill's actions in WWll, no doubt the insertion of ANZAC troops into Greece was based more on political necessity than military wisdom, and the subsequent Crete campaign was more of an attempt to make a controlled withdrawal to Egypt. Although the North African campaign ebbed and flowed based on the differing abilities of the Italian, British and German commanders, and was carried out more purely as a military campaign without undue political influence, other than that the Prime Minister maintained the right to remove generals who were not performing. OME You are quite right about the details of those campaigns, OME. I was painting the past with a pretty broad brush. I agree the strategy of attempting to force the Dardenelles was sound; it might have shortened the war. But the buck stops at the top and the planners should have considered the calibre of their officers before committing large numbers of troops (and Australians tend to forget the huge losses suffered by Indian, French and British forces, let alone the Turks.)
dazza 38 Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 The modern officer is a lot different to their predecessor as in the both world wars, people were thrust into being officers from civilian life in a very short space of time. Officers are not born, they are trained and made and it takes time.
Geoff13 Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 You are quite right about the details of those campaigns, OME. I was painting the past with a pretty broad brush. I agree the strategy of attempting to force the Dardenelles was sound; it might have shortened the war. But the buck stops at the top and the planners should have considered the calibre of their officers before committing large numbers of troops (and Australians tend to forget the huge losses suffered by Indian, French and British forces, let alone the Turks.) At the risk of forming enemies it seems that someone else realises that the Anzac legend is not all it seemed to be.
rgmwa Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Not much is ever said about the use of aircraft at Gallipoli, but the allies had over 100 aircraft in the area, both land and ship based, including some observation balloons and blimps. Although the performance of the planes was often pretty marginal, they carried out almost daily photographic reconnaissance missions, bombed towns, troop concentrations and supply lines all over the peninsula and also attacked shipping in the Sea of Marmara. During the landings on 25 April, they patrolled the beaches spotting for the allied warships. On their side, the Turks had a number of German aircraft, likewise used mainly for reconnaissance and artillery spotting, but there were also occasional clashes with allied aircraft. rgmwa 1
Old Koreelah Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 At the risk of forming enemies it seems that someone else realises that the Anzac legend is not all it seemed to be. Every so often I have to scroll up to the top to see what the original topic was... Who cares about thread drift. It's all good discussion and debate. John Howard is credited with reviving and entrenching the Gallipoli myth. Many returned servicemen, including men who had seen more action than most, never joined the RSL or participated in ANZAC marches, but I guess every nation needs its rituals and ceremonies. I could never understand how senseless slaughter on some remote beach in Turkey was Australia's "coming of age". Paul Keating, to his credit, brought our national attention to the Kokoda campaign- where this country really was in peril and our ill-equipped, ill-trained and derided "chocolate soldiers" achieved greatness. That so many Australians walk the Kokoda Track is to me a far greater tribute to our diggers than the excesses of the annual Gallipolli thing. 1
turboplanner Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 I'd agree that Kokoda was probably our greatest success. With a bare minimum of training, and that only intended for homeland reserves action, and 105 of them facing around 1200 hardened Japanese soldiers, it's a magnificent story. Against those odds they fought a day by day retreat for which Macarthur called them cowards. He sent a American troops up the Kokoda Trail to show them how it should be done, they got lost, and only a few survived to join our reservists, then decided that the front was too reckless and they should set up further back out of the firing line. As the battle progressed, one company, more of a rabble than the other ran off from the front line also and made their way back to port Moresby - something which didn't make the front pages. However the retreat remained under control. The British wouldn't release Australian Regular Army soldiers to support them, instead, sending them to Asia, the Australian Prime Minister jacked up, took them out of British control and shipped them to Port Moresby, which was probably the beginning of the end for Australia's UK focus (where we used to talk of "going home" for a visit to UK. At the same time our Regulars arrived at the battle scene the Japanese had brought in more reinforcements, so the Australians were still substantially outnumbered, and the the Regulars only had time to fall into the foxholes with the reservists. By the end of Day 1 they were calling the Reservists the bravest soldiers they'd ever fought with, and after the war I'd love to have been around a pub when someone was called a "Chokko" when there was a Regular Army soldier in the bar. The controlled retreat continued until the Australians started getting successful air drops (after many failed attempts) and the Japanese started to find difficulty getting food and ammunition. The retreat continued until the front came withing range of Australia;s 25 pounders which had been dragged up the mountains as far as possible by only about 70 miles north of Port Moresby. (The Japanes had had mountain guns throughout their advance.) This evened things up for a few days, and then the lack of Japanese supply lies started to tell, the Australians got more reinforcements, and the battle shifted back up the track and the Japanese were eventually pushed off New Guinea. The book I'd recommend is "Kokoda" by Paul Ham. It also details the failures of Macarthur and General Blamey, and their unjustified sackings of several great Kokoda commanders. I finished up buying half a dozen books covering their histories, and the Allied Command left a lot to be desired, and that's an understatement. Hitler being asleep on D Day would be a mild infraction by comparison. The battle of Long Tan is still emerging in history, and may even have been more intense. 1
turboplanner Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 At the risk of forming enemies it seems that someone else realises that the Anzac legend is not all it seemed to be. It's still intact, we are celebrating a defeat, but this was the first time separate States with their own Governors had fought together as a Country and it did weld us together (it had taken 50 years before the States voted to join together). Our performance at Gallipoli was 8159 killed, 17,924 wounded and only 70 captured. Turkish losses were much greater. On the first day a group of New Zealanders scaled the cliffs ran over the hills and reached the hinterland, having to turn back again. Some Australians reached the high points which were not reached again for months. The Generals ran the show from ships anchored out in the bay. We got off lightly; in one night at Fromelles 5,533 Australians were killed. Overall for WW1, our casualty rate was 65%, more than any other Country. As much as British Generals are the accused, this was the first war where machine guns were used extensively. Previously they could flood a section of the line with troops and get a breakthrough. This time round those charges were just casually cut down. The Generals were doing what they were trained to do, but it didn't take long to learn. They didn't spare their own either. We got the cliffs, allegedly due to mistakes by the towing boats, but when the mists cleared six hospital ships were line up side by side in Anzac Cove. The British soldiers got the easy part of the beach, which naturally had the biggest concentration of Turks, and 21,255 British were killed alongside us. 10,000 French were also killed. The Turkish deaths were 86,000, defending their own land. We can blame the British Generals, but the key performer was Mustafa Kemal, and active Divisional Commander who kept adjusting his troops to win the battle. Les Carlyon's book "Gallipoli" cuts through most of the old propaganda
Old Koreelah Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 ... but the key performer was Mustafa Kemal... Some good must come from the carnage; the respect between Australian and Turk was a positive outcome (I'm looking forward to seeing "The Water Diviner"- I believe lots of Turks went to see it). Canberra has a memorial honouring Ataturk- a unique tribute to an enemy. One of the most stirring lines from Chris Masters' great TV doco about the Gallipoli campaign; he stood a mile or two inland where some Aussies had penetrated before they were killed: "They Turks buried them where they fell". http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2011/08/08/3288497.htm 1
dazza 38 Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 I'd agree that Kokoda was probably our greatest success. With a bare minimum of training, and that only intended for homeland reserves action, and 105 of them facing around 1200 hardened Japanese soldiers, it's a magnificent story. Against those odds they fought a day by day retreat for which Macarthur called them cowards. He sent a American troops up the Kokoda Trail to show them how it should be done, they got lost, and only a few survived to join our reservists, then decided that the front was too reckless and they should set up further back out of the firing line. As the battle progressed, one company, more of a rabble than the other ran off from the front line also and made their way back to port Moresby - something which didn't make the front pages. However the retreat remained under control. The British wouldn't release Australian Regular Army soldiers to support them, instead, sending them to Asia, the Australian Prime Minister jacked up, took them out of British control and shipped them to Port Moresby, which was probably the beginning of the end for Australia's UK focus (where we used to talk of "going home" for a visit to UK.At the same time our Regulars arrived at the battle scene the Japanese had brought in more reinforcements, so the Australians were still substantially outnumbered, and the the Regulars only had time to fall into the foxholes with the reservists. By the end of Day 1 they were calling the Reservists the bravest soldiers they'd ever fought with, and after the war I'd love to have been around a pub when someone was called a "Chokko" when there was a Regular Army soldier in the bar. The controlled retreat continued until the Australians started getting successful air drops (after many failed attempts) and the Japanese started to find difficulty getting food and ammunition. The retreat continued until the front came withing range of Australia;s 25 pounders which had been dragged up the mountains as far as possible by only about 70 miles north of Port Moresby. (The Japanes had had mountain guns throughout their advance.) This evened things up for a few days, and then the lack of Japanese supply lies started to tell, the Australians got more reinforcements, and the battle shifted back up the track and the Japanese were eventually pushed off New Guinea. The book I'd recommend is "Kokoda" by Paul Ham. It also details the failures of Macarthur and General Blamey, and their unjustified sackings of several great Kokoda commanders. I finished up buying half a dozen books covering their histories, and the Allied Command left a lot to be desired, and that's an understatement. Hitler being asleep on D Day would be a mild infraction by comparison. The battle of Long Tan is still emerging in history, and may even have been more intense. Yup I have read the Kokoda book by Paul Ham. A great read for anybody interested in what really happened at Kokoda.
Old Koreelah Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 I'd agree that Kokoda was probably our greatest success...it's a magnificent story… Some of the great stories from recent books about this campaign should be celebrated down the ages. Men on both sides showed their best and worst sides. At Isurava an Australian Padre carried a shovel up over the fortifications in open view of the enemy. The Japanese held their fire while he dug a grave and buried a fallen Australian. (I have collected many such stories of human decency in wartime and would love to get them published.) We should spare some empathy for the poor starving, desperate Japanese troops who had battled and laboured their way to within sight of Port Moresby when they were ordered to withdraw. Ill-supplied and finally abandoned by the cruel military machine they served loyally, most lie forgotten in the jungle.
turboplanner Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 The Water Diviner is a great film with many surprising twists. These are the words by Mustafa Kemal (Ataturk) on the Turkish Memorial at ANZAC Cove "Heroes who shed their blood and lost their lives! You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours. You, mothers, who sent their sons from far away countries wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well." 1 1
facthunter Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Any one who has studied Ataturk knows that but He was a very wise and reasonable person. There was good respect between the Australians and the Turks. It was their country that was being invaded after all. The world needs more people like him. There is a lot of info about on him..Nev 1
turboplanner Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 If you have a relative who fought in WW1, the Australian War Museum has scanned all papers for the lot. If you go on the AWM website, you can download about 20 pages of their record. Be aware this can be confronting when you read the exact details of how your great grandfather died, belt buckles going packaged to be sent home, personal letters etc. My grandfather hand a little incident of AWOL when he and his mates decided to go out drinking in England. Later when my great uncle was killed in the battle of Lone Pine and no one knew where it happened, his mother persuaded him to write a letter to the Minister accompanying hers to find out what happened to him. I notice it was signed Your Obedient Service, no doubt hoping the AWOL wouldn't be found out by his mother. Eventually one of my great uncle's mates came forward with evidence that he was shot at the very beginning of the battle when there was no time to bury the dead, and his body was beside the track which they all used to get to the front line each morning. The mate went back the following Saturday and buried him. If you get a copy of the Battalion Diary which was written up each day, for your relative's Battalion, you can see where the Companies were fighting each day. Then if the relative was killed on a certain day, you can pinpoint the location usually to within 100 metres. Then if you use the French equivalent of Google Earth, which is much clearer you can look at the exact area where he fell. WW2 soldiers are currently being databased and that will take a few years, but if your relative's details haven't been scanned 1
dazza 38 Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 I am currently reading a book on Tobruk. It was interesting to read that Italian tanks had two forward gears and five reverse gears.
Old Koreelah Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 If you have a relative who fought in WW1, the Australian War Museum has scanned all papers for the lot. If you go on the AWM website, you can download about 20 pages of their record...WW2 soldiers are currently being databased and that will take a few years, but if your relative's details haven't been scanned That's something our authorities did pretty well (no doubt easier if your side won the war.) When the Soviet Union had their annual memorial day for The Great Patriotic War, one of the saddest sights was all the old ladies carrying signs begging for some information about where their loved ones ended up.
turboplanner Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 Yes, we think we suffered, but this is Russia's equivalent to our "Unknown Soldier". "The Motherland Calls" statue has 87,000 unknown soldiers buried below it. It's 279 feet tall and you can see the scale by the human figures at the bottom.
facthunter Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 Well They lost more than anyone. The stupidity of war as a solution continues with no sign of reduced possibilities into the future. Nev 2
turboplanner Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 We should spare some empathy for the poor starving, desperate Japanese troops who had battled and laboured their way to within sight of Port Moresby when they were ordered to withdraw. Ill-supplied and finally abandoned by the cruel military machine they served loyally, most lie forgotten in the jungle. Problem was the cruel military machine had already been beaten, by normal war standards but the Japanese ethos was that it was shameful not to die for the emperor. (The story of the Cowra breakout really drives this home). So instead of Japan capitulating when other nations would have, they continued to defend their country against the Americans. Our government very successfully conducted a propaganda exercise that painted them as virtually beasts who committed endless atrocities, but it's worthwhile reading Weary Dunlop's diaries which were made into a book. He was present for the full building of the Burma Railway where the Japanese supposedly committed atrocities, and the pages are day to day in his words without any omissions and colouring. The Japanese officers and guards suffered the same sicknesses and food shortages as the Australians, and died with them albeit in lesser numbers, simply because there was no support. He was medically treating sick Japanese as well as Australians, and although he had some sharp thoughts about the Japanese threatening to execute Australians who had tried to escape etc., or send Australians out to work when they were sick, he usually went to the Japanese CO and said "No" and that was that, and I think only on one occasion he stood between the firing squad and the victims and they gave up. It is well worth a read. 1 1
facthunter Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 We are a bit off topic, but the Koreans and Chinese are not too impressed with how they were slaughtered, leading up to the "39 war. The Japanese ethic was to regard prisoners as the lowest form of anything as "Death before Dishonor" is a great way to get people to operate for you. The Emperor was a God figure to obey without question. Imperial Japan thought a great many of the "oppressed people of the orient would join with them as they came through with some concept of a Great South East ASIA Co prosperity Treaty, but their actions didn't encourage a lot of defectors to their side. I knew people personally who were in the Changi Prison and others who served in that area .. I don't think many of them purchased Japanese vehicles or were too pro Japanese for a long while. Nev
turboplanner Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 The shame of the Japanese people today is so great that they simply will not talk about the war unless pushed quite hard.
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