Single seat aircraft missing near Bulli Tops

[ayavner]

Location: YWBN

 

Date: 28-Jan-2015

 

First-Light: 18:45 UTC

 

Last-Light: 09:33 UTC

 

I'm with you dutch, i cannot fathom even sitting down to plan a flight in this weather, much less actually take off in it. And that's with only 3 years experience.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

He was going there in company with another aircraft so did that mean they planned to drop one aircraft off and return in the other that late?

 

 

[facthunter]

No reason to believe that. Any how it's one ship one captain. Nev

 

 

[Pilot Pete]

Could have, should have, would have........ If only we learnt from the mistakes of others. But we are what we are and will continue to do things like this because it is in our nature to do so. People have died since life begun trying to do things others have already died trying. Not trying to be philosophical about this sad incedece but this sort of thing will continue to happen regardless of training and whether the pilot was Raaus or Ga qualified

 

 

[Teckair]

I don't know why people do these things probably because they are not perfect and I reckon anybody who has done a lot of flying and thinks they have all the answers should give it away.

 

 

[facthunter]

Some people who have 100 hours think they have it all too. Nev

 

 

[ayavner]

There are no new ways to kill yourself flying. You'd think we'd get it.

 

 

[dutchroll]

When you're in a small VFR plane and the sky gets dark, grey, and wet, it is trying to tell you something.

 

 

[bluey the fly]

They both set out in marginal conditions navigating around cloud, one got caught up, experienced pilot with GA & RAA licence, wrong decision made. some time you get away with it, we have all made mistakes.

 

 

[kaz3g]

We had four youths die in an horrific road crash in rural Victoria today. The car, an SS Commodore, was spilt in two.

 

Every day the media is full of road safety material and yet the carnage still goes on as it has for the last 50 years or more.

 

The only difference between then and now is that the cars themselves are safer, but faster, and we only kill ourselves at the rate of 300 each year instead of 1100.

 

Pushing boundaries and grieving for those who push too hard seem to be very human activities; I can't think of any other life form that does it.

 

Kaz

 

 

[fred cenko]

We had four youths die in an horrific road crash in rural Victoria today. The car, an SS Commodore, was spilt in two.Every day the media is full of road safety material and yet the carnage still goes on as it has for the last 50 years or more.

 

The only difference between then and now is that the cars themselves are safer, but faster, and we only kill ourselves at the rate of 300 each year instead of 1100.

 

Pushing boundaries and grieving for those who push too hard seem to be very human activities; I can't think of any other life form that does it.

 

Kaz

Maybe that is why aliens in their UFOS do not want to land here.They study us look at at our ways and laugh and just keep on keeping on going.

 

 

[dutchroll]

How much light would you guys have at 8 pm?

Just as an indication, tonight I left Mascot Airport right on 8pm. The skies had cleared a lot from what they were last night, but it was still enough for most cars to have their headlights on. By 8.20pm I would've said it was unsafe (notwithstanding illegal anyway) to land a day VFR aircraft. With the overcast weather it would've been a fair bit darker yesterday at the same time. However I still think the weather itself would have been the main factor, rather than the amount of daylight left. It really wasn't good at all. The amount of daylight left was probably more an indication of their eagerness to get home, despite the weather, if anything.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

'Get there itis' strikes again by the look of it.....refe to post # 18......Condolences.

 

 

[Pilot Pete]

Aye...... Condolences to Family and friends.

 

 

[planedriver]

Gethomeitis has an ugly set of teeth that can bite families hard, sadly.

 

Put this on your checklist if thinking of heading off in doubtful conditions.

 

 

[alf jessup]

I don't know why people do these things probably because they are not perfect and I reckon anybody who has done a lot of flying and thinks they have all the answers should give it away.

Teckair,

 

They do these things because they don't think it will happen to them, it always happens to someone else, problem is you surname can change to someone else when pushing the boundaries, we are all human, humans make mistakes and costly ones at that.

 

Alf

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

From perusing the Wedderburn newsletter this gentleman appeared to be seasoned aviator and a good club member...also flew a Piper Seneca and was a partner in the lost aircraft. Probabily had a lot of good flying behind him and the aircraft itself looked very nice and not that old.

 

Shows that we can all be subceptable to doubtfull decisions on occasions......and yet another sad loss for us all..

 

 

[poteroo]

I feel a sense of dismay, and frustration, when these weather related accidents happen. It seems that no matter how carefully we nurture pilots, there is only a certain 'amount' of understanding that can be absorbed at the time. After that, pilots are exposed to the elements, and many come to grief. Those of us lucky enough to have had service training, or began our careers in very strictly managed GA operations, have been progressively exposed to weather, and have been able to learn where that limit to our skills lies. I still believe that all pilots need recurrent training - ie, that a BFR is not enough to maintain pilot skills. The bottom line is - that you are more likely to have an accident the less training that you receive. RAAus needs to think 'harder' about how we can improve the industry standards. Goodnight.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

There seem to be two quite different situations. One where the decision is made to fly in dodgy conditions, which we can all criticise it in retrospect. The other is where conditions close in or are not as forecast but the original decision to fly is one we could all have made. So there are two approaches to training required. One is to better assess conditions when deciding whether or not to take off in the first place. The other is to progressively assess conditions while flying and understand when the turn back or alternate point has been reached, while still in VMC. The latter is probably much harder to teach.

 

 

[Teckair]

The bottom line is - that you are more likely to have an accident the less training that you receive. RAAus needs to think 'harder' about how we can improve the industry standards. Goodnight.

I don't agree with that you cannot train common sense into people any more than you can do it with a human factors course. Some people will choose to take themselves out of the equation and there is nothing you can do about it.

 

 

[facthunter]

The human factors course is valuable IF done right. Ours certainly wasn't, so don't judge the potential of the "teaching" by what we have had.. It should be an ongoing thing too. On the multiple occasions I have done them, I found the most resistant to the idea need it the most and usually came very unstuck during the course. Some will never change, but training is what a lot of things are about, flying being one of them. The more you know the luckier you get. There are people who should NEVER be near the front of an aeroplane (or CAR either to a lesser extent). that training won't work on, who think accidents only happen to other people.. Not applying this to the current accident fully as I wasn't there, but we do know the conditions. When it comes to weather be a CHICKEN man. and live to fly another day.. Nev

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Radio news here (I'm just the other side of Sydney and we've been getting totally hammered by this weather) said the crash occurred just before 8pm last night. Pilot had 40 years experience. 40 years. 8pm. Atrocious weather. Sorry, but I'm speechless.

History is littered with examples of experienced pilots ending with the same fate as this poor pilot. Sometimes it's hard to say no and turn back, especially when an individual may have been a similar situation before with positive outcome. Sadly aviation is an unforgiving mistress.

As for the weather on that day, I looked up at the escarpment where the accident took place about a half an hour before and thought to myself "I'm glad I'm not at work today", with the low overcast and in the shadows of the escarpment, it was almost dark at the time.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Very very sad. I feel for the family, and even more so if the accident is weather related as it totally avoidable.

 

Its a pet subject of mine, and many other Instructors Im sure.

 

Its all about setting limits (I reckon) defining them and sticking to them. When assessing the weather for students solo's etc, I use the VFR alternate minnimas as a 'guide'. By that I mean, if a pilot was to be planning a nav TO the airfield you are flying from, would that airfield require an alternate to be carried?

 

ie. Cloud base scattered at 1500ft agl (or worse), and vis 8 km's ( or worse) Tempos or inters for TS or RASH+ etc.

 

I reckon its a good place to start anyway. Sure, its perfectly legal to operate below these minnimas, but when deciding weather to fly, I reckon they are a good benchmark to make your decisions around. Are conditions forecast to improve or deteriorate etc.

 

We may be jumping the gun here, this prang may not have had anything to do with the WX, but it certainly should give us a push to discuss things I reckon, the wx certainly hampered the search for the wreckage.

 

 

[Teckair]

How do you train someone not to fly in bad weather in low light? Is there a suggestion there are pilots who do not understand these things?

 

 

[dutchroll]

From the Illawarra Mercury today: http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/2847211/austinmer-crash-no-sign-pilot-was-on-fatal-course/?cs=300

 

"He flew through rain and heavy fog and became separated from the second pilot en route to Illawarra Regional Airport, about 50 kilometres south."

 

"Nialla Clarke, of Foothills Road, said she heard ‘‘a zipping sound then a bang’’ at the time of the accident, but dismissed it as thunder."

 

"The search was abandoned around midnight on Tuesday when heavy fog shrouded much of the escarpment, forcing police to call off a search chopper."

 

‘It would have been a very complex manoeuvre to have pilots flying in the conditions that they were flying in last night had they not been equipped appropriately to do so, and/or trained appropriately to do so.’’ (comment by Police Local Area Commander Kyle Stewart)

 

Again, speechless.