Purchasing and leasing out an aircraft

[Narrabeenrick]

Hi guys

 

I’m after a bit advice/direction. I’m thinking, JUST THINKING !!! At the moment of purchasing a ra-aus reg’ aircraft and leasing it back to my flying school. Because of the Jab motor restrictions at the moment my flying school only has 1 aircraft and that is very close to needing an engine overhaul. I only have 14hrs under my belt. I need to finish my pilot cert’ then I need another 10hrs for my cross country endorsement. So owning an aircraft would cheapen things that way. But I’m a total newbie really, SO!

 

Any thoughts?

 

Does the monetary return cover all or most of the cost associated with the aircraft operation?

 

What to look out for?

 

How much should I get back per hour to cover costs?

 

Any hidden cost?

 

I would have hanger fees,

 

Insurance {does it cost more to insure for an aircraft used for training?}

 

Maintenance costs.

 

I’m sure I’m missing things. Am I dreaming or is it possible?

 

Cheers

 

Rick

 

 

[facthunter]

It has some traps.

 

You have a plane that you have no real idea how the airframe has been, is being knocked about. This is one of the real advantages in owning your own plane. YOU have control

 

You can't get the plane when you want it yourself.

 

Yes the insurance will cost more.

 

RAAus type planes will not have the life in a training environment say a Cessna 150 will. They can become pretty second hand real quick.

 

YOU would need to trust the person doing the maintenance. The school might want the least cost repair. You might want it done right (or better).

 

A lot of people have done this before. (including myself)

 

The more opinions you get the better the decision

 

My general advice is DON'T.

 

IF you want to share costs pick the ones you go into a syndicate with as a better (but still not without it's problems) option.

 

Anticipate the problems and have a full understanding with the operator BEFORE they happen.

 

There are some good school operators here who may give you advice too. They may have done a good job from their side of the matter.

 

You will probably Underestimate the maintenance cost.

 

Good luck. Nev

 

 

[Happyflyer]

If it flies, floats or you know what, rent it!

 

I suggest you do not get into leasing an aircraft to a flying school while you are so very new to the game. Another very true saying is "aviation is a good place to make a small fortune........if you start off with a large fortune".

 

 

[fly_tornado]

See what sort of deal you can get out of the flying school

 

 

[Fly_inverted]

When i briefly toyed with the idea of Buy vs Rent while learning, these are some of the numbers i crunched for 100 hours of flying out of Canberra

 

Park a plane at Canberra airport, outside, was either $3000 or $6000 per year...i forget now....i think it was the $6k one....as i think park in a hangar was $12k odd.

 

100 hourly maintenance - $2000 ish

 

Insurance for low hour pilot - more than $1000

 

Fuel/oil $5000

 

Repayments on purchase of aircraft, say brand new $100K toy.....somewhere round $10,000 /year

 

Depreciation....being generous at 5% / year.......$5000

 

Flying school charges $90/hour to teach u in your plane.....so while learning that would be another $5000 -ish

 

all versus just hiring a plane with instructor at $150 or so per hour.

 

one day i will buy a plane, but between now and then i will rent a variety of aircraft..... and have some affordable fun

 

 

[djpacro]

Seems to be doubling up there on repayments on purchase of aircraft plus depreciation.

 

Still, if it was a good deal, flying schools would buy the aeroplanes themselves. Having said that, I have an aeroplane online but only happy with that as I do most of the instruction on it.

 

 

[Fly_inverted]

Seems to be doubling up there on repayments on purchase of aircraft plus depreciation.

yes, i can see your point on double quoting there. i should have clarified with while paying off your new toy at say $10K/ year, it may be depreciating in value faster than that. at some rate that exceeds your repayments.

i had someone say to me once that if you went and bought a 30 year old piper/cessna, and kept it for 5 years you might be able to sell it for what you paid for it. But if you went and bought a brand new ultralight type aircraft, in 5 years you'd be lucky if it was worth half what you paid.

 

 

[rankamateur]

Insurance for low hour pilot - more than $1000

Yes about $2500 more on a $95000 LSA, that is about $1000 higher than 3 years ago, and that isn't loaded for use in training. Apparently the actual hull value doesn't have a big bearing on the annual premium. This is the price we pay for the high amount of crashes some weekends.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

$1000 Hull insurance is grossly understated.....a $100k hull will cost somewhere between 2500 and 4000 depending on experience and use......I'll bet with your experience and their use Id be looking at the upper end and hoping it doesn't exceed that.....

 

Simple fact of the matter is that owning an aircraft is an emotional decision because for the vast majority of us there is no financial analysis on earth that would ever show buying is a good idea....and yet over 3,000 of us have done exactly that...some of us are such slow learners that they've done it more than once....

 

If you need to make the financials add up then your aircraft has to earn you an income and generally one better than putting it on line.......

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

My brain tells me it's not a good idea, but one day I still hope to sample aircraft ownership!

 

 

[Geoff13]

yes, i can see your point on double quoting there. i should have clarified with while paying off your new toy at say $10K/ year, it may be depreciating in value faster than that. at some rate that exceeds your repayments.i had someone say to me once that if you went and bought a 30 year old piper/cessna, and kept it for 5 years you might be able to sell it for what you paid for it. But if you went and bought a brand new ultralight type aircraft, in 5 years you'd be lucky if it was worth half what you paid.

I don't see any LSA Foxbats advertised for less than a new one. The cheapest way to buy a 600kg Foxbat is to buy new. The second hand ones are all dearer than new.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

I don't see any LSA Foxbats advertised for less than a new one. The cheapest way to buy a 600kg Foxbat is to buy new. The second hand ones are all dearer than new.

Obviously the factory can not keep up. Maybe it's the Russian sanctions biting!

 

 

[facthunter]

The cost increase is due to the devaluing aussie dollar. Nev

 

 

[Geoff13]

No Nev the second hand ones are dearer than the new ones.

 

 

[gareth lacey]

100k plane = $4200 insurance trust me i have recently paid that amount ,insured for $110k ,includes hanger ,taxiing, damage as well as hull (low time pilots pay more methinks)

 

 

[facthunter]

They may be asking more but what are they getting for the Foxbat's.? There may be some uncertainty of supply at the moment. Nev

 

 

[poteroo]

There is an extra column you need in your spreadsheet - and it's headed unforeseens. It will include items such as AD's, SB's on airframe, replacement of 'lifed' components, upgrades on components, and replacement of 'dead' instruments and components. Trust me - there are always new costs that you cannot forsee.

 

The other word of caution is this. Flying school owners may contract to you in absolute good faith. However, you need to expect there will be some unreported incidents involving both instructors and hiring pilots because the egos in our industry often cannot admit mistakes. These will add to your unforeseen items because your insurance excess may be quite high and it's cheaper to just pay up and hope the no claim bonus helps.

 

You may be better to consider group ownership to reduce your per hour costs via higher annual utilisation.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Narrabeenrick]

Thanks for all the info' guys, I need to talk again with my school and other owners at the school.

 

Cheers

 

Rick

 

 

[AVOCET]

Im humming to myself :

 

MONEY ... Du du du , da da

 

( pink floid )

 

Probly hum it all day !

 

 

[Downunder]

Can some one tell me the hours insurance companies use for low hour/high hour pilots?

 

 

[SDQDI]

Can some one tell me the hours insurance companies use for low hour/high hour pilots?

Ours is tail wheel so slightly different but we organised with our insurer to have a minimum of 1000 hrs tail wheel plus me as a named pilot and if I have anyone who is under 1000 hrs tailwheel and is going to fly it I have to let them know (the insurer). But I'm not sure if the 1000hrs mark is the benchmark or not

 

 

[Narrabeenrick]

Hi guys

 

Spoke to the 2 guys at our flying school that own planes. Ok so, owning and leasing it to the flying school is out, The damage/repairs from student {like myself} soon mounts up. They bother say owning the aircraft isn't too expensive, One pays $2000 for insurance the other pays $3000 his was $4000 but comes down every year the more hours he gets up . Hanger fees are $500 pm but I only looking for an aircraft that has the de-rigging wings and trailer it. So the hangering fees are not an issue. them the maintenance. the 25hr and the 100hr priced they told me were reasonable. the 1000hr was more expensive, but 1000hr is a long way off for me. They both told me to wait and get a lot more hrs under my belt before purchasing an aircraft, So I'll wait a couple of years now, no rush, Just want to be a safe pilot over everything. I don't want to be some Gung ho inexperienced pilot an endanger myself or my passenger.

 

Thanks for all the help

 

Rick