Wind Turbine Hazard to Aviation

[Old Koreelah]

Pardon my obvious ignorance, but would Solar energy be less costly to establish in a country which has somewhat more reliable sunshine per day that we do up here at around 52 degrees North. . . . ?Educate me please.

 

Phil

You are quite right, Phil. Australian researchers have developed world-leading solar technologies, but find little local backing (Australian governments have to keep the voters happy with short-term goodies like new sports stadiums and tax cuts). Lots of Arab money has gone into some local solar technologies, and one Chinese student took what he'd learned here back home and set up a multi-billion dollar solar cell company.

Perhaps the biggest hurdle is that this continent is cursed with lots of resources, which has skewed our economy dangerously. Blind freddy can see the advantages of converting our economy to renewables, but we have become dangerously dependant on exporting coal, and that industry has enormous influence over governments. Australia's renewables industry is struggling to develop- the Abbott government has shown open hostility to clean energy.

 

 

[Modelmakeroz]

Any of you want to do the maths on the installation and maintenance costs compared to what they produce.They wouldn't exist without subsidies.

If you want clean, economically viable energy, hydro is it.

Oddly enough the successful investors in wind farms and wind technology have done their sums. The value of wind generation has nothing at all to do with subsidies.

We had a good look at the situation while travellling around the US last year. We would be travelling along barely able to keep the camper van on the road due to wind and not one turbine would be turning, then one cue one would unfeather its blades and before I could get a second look (driving remember) it would be at full speed. In small groups on they would come to match the peak demand.

 

Now if I were a novice regarding the electrical grid this would seem bizarre, but over 40 years in the industry can provide an insight or two.

 

The most expensive power is peak power. Base load stations are now 1 Gigawatt or bigger per generating unit it does not pay to stop them (like the greenweirds think happens in"earth hour"). The time to actually bring up and synchronise a large set is measured in days and if brought up in hours has serious implications for the longivity of the units.

 

Traditionally old wornout sations have been used as peak loaders with the peak and trough fine tuning achieved by diesel fired gas turbines which could be on line in 2 minutes. Those units installed around Australia typically employed 2 Rolls Royce Avon jet engines as compressors pushing a single turbine wheel. This technology is still current with an order of magnitude or two bigger compressors. GE hae just built the largest to date in France and are commissioning the type in the US. These new units mostly are natural gas fired and once again come on line quickly. A short time later (around 30 minutes) the flash boilers is fully pressurised and the unit becomes combined cycle bringing overall station efficiency to approaching 60%.

 

Two minutes sounds good, but it is nowhere near fast enough, so the wind turbines which are fully powered up by the afternoon breeze but feathered really make a difference. It is not only the power capability but also the linearity of the rampup that is so valuable.

 

Further to that, in a large grid as in the US or Australia's East Coast where power is transmitted across large distances and time zones the watts are easy enough to tansmit allowing for I squared losses, but VARS are quite difficult to tansmit and are extemely necessary, especially during periods of heavy loads. VARS provide the magnetising current to enable the transformers to operate. It was lack of VARS that caused the 2003 grid cascade failure in North East US and Eastern Canada. Suggested reading; official report on 2003 cascade failure, several hundred pages long.

 

By being distributed along the axis of the grid renewable power sources not only significantly lower the grid impedance but provide a cheap linear source of VARS. The rollout projects have also include long overdue stiffening of weak spots in the grid (at least in the US). This long overdue capex is what is being labelled as subsidy and of course nothing could be further from the truth.

 

By way of explanation, output from a genset, station or system is a mixture of Watts (Kilowatts, Megawatts, Gigawatts depending on scale) and Volt Amps Reactive (kilovars, Megavars, Gigavars) added together they make up the VA, KVA, MVA, GVA rating of the set, station or system.

 

Managing the balance of VA, VARS, Watts, Frequency and Voltage has been a dark art. It was lack of understanding of the issues that allowed Enron to perform their scam.

 

In the last year or so there has been a major anti-renewable pushback, not because it is unviable but because it is very viable.

 

The Australian Newspaper has been a forum for these vested interests, I have also seen trolling in Silicon Chip magazine. Now here it is in an unrelated magazine, probably only repeating the propaganda.

 

The purpose of the pushback and source seem to be State owned supply authorities who want customer provided energy to be theirs for free or preferably with charges applied. Remember State Govts are fattenng up the assets for sale. I will leave readers to do their own research on this, the paper trail is there.

 

Hydro.

 

Hydro has many of the same attributes as other renewables, speed to synchronise being a major beneficial factor. Pumped storage is our most viable storage to date but limited in scope. Unfortunately Australia has poor hydro prospects and the greenweird lobby have prevented the few viable sites that exist being developed, think Franklin River.

 

Once again think international. The Hoover Dam is a major hydro dam and it is so overcommitted that during the day 2 sets are running and even as a peaker it is struggling. To get aound this problem the existing transmission lines to California now take power from Solar 1 and Solar 2. That was an interesting site. Once again prior to peak over 10% of the troughs were feathered out of service. It all changes come peak time though.

 

One more snippit. The generation of rooftop inverters now rolling out in Europe are to include active power management to control the VARS on the grid. Supply authorities will love it, current units support the voltage very well and more expensive ones already control power factor (VARS). When mandated and there is talk of enforcing retrofitting software, they will take money for jam.

 

 

[Marty_d]

MMOz, that was so good I wanted to give it "Winner" and "Informative". You'll just have to settle for one.

 

 

[Modelmakeroz]

MMOz, that was so good I wanted to give it "Winner" and "Informative". You'll just have to settle for one.

Sorry about latching onto the hijacked part. Unfortunately a lot of it (hijacking with motive) going on.

Wasn't the original photo sensational. Reminds me of the "Morning Glory" clouds up in the Gulf. No I don't think I'd want to play Don Quixote and buzz any of these windmills. Ouch.

 

 

[skeptic36]

Thanks Modelm,

 

I stand corrected.

 

My claim was based on my own experience about 18 years ago, when I did some research into putting one on our farm for our own use ( we use a lot) and selling the rest to the grid. I don't remember the figures other than the cost of a reconditioned generator was around $225000.00 without the tower to put it on or connecting it to anything. The other limiting factor was that it had a very short TBO (again unfortunately I can't remember the exact figure , so I won't guess) I didn't go any further after I was given those ball park numbers.

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Sorry about latching onto the hijacked part. Unfortunately a lot of it (hijacking with motive) going on.Wasn't the original photo sensational. Reminds me of the "Morning Glory" clouds up in the Gulf. No I don't think I'd want to play Don Quixote and buzz any of these windmills. Ouch.

Oh, don't apologise about the latch-on. I am the OP and am delighted to learn of all the opinions, right or wrong, and the extraneous information that this thread has generated (no pun intended).

 

Just to throw it out there for those who have an in-depth knowledge of the subject, or those with an opinion of course, where does (and/or, should) nuclear power fit in for Australia? We have the core materials, after all ...

 

And yes, the morning glory, I've had the fun of 'surfing' its front a couple of times, in a C172 and a B206. I first saw it when in the Gulf with a Drifter and so much wish I'd then thought to fly with it and an open cockpit. It looks large-ish from the ground but when you're just ahead of it, it's mountainous.

 

 

[Modelmakeroz]

Thanks Modelm,I stand corrected.

My claim was based on my own experience about 18 years ago, when I did some research into putting one on our farm for our own use ( we use a lot) and selling the rest to the grid. I don't remember the figures other than the cost of a reconditioned generator was around $225000.00 without the tower to put it on or connecting it to anything. The other limiting factor was that it had a very short TBO (again unfortunately I can't remember the exact figure , so I won't guess) I didn't go any further after I was given those ball park numbers.

 

Regards Bill

Bill,

At small scale wind probably still isn't viable. A lot like small coal plants aren't viable. Part of the current installation activity is refitting existing wind farms with smaller numbers of new larger units. Allegedly the old units are exported to developing countries.

 

As for downstream and other effects we can be sure they exist in one form or another. Like eveything else it becomes a cost benefit analysis.

 

Regarding TBO. It is important to look at the maintenance costs. If you have bearing failure due to electrofluting for instance and therefore have to bring down the nacelle early. There goes all your profit. Early units had exactly that problem andthe manufacturer would not listen so customers had to solve the issue themselves. A crowd called Aegis provided the microfibre brushrings to keep the stray current out of the bearings. I have to deal with the same manufacturer on a different product with similar technology and have the same bearing issues. They still don't listen.

 

So yes there are risks that take experience to understand.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

The main problem with wind generation in the UK is, I believe, poor PR. What I am referring to is that the proponents of wind power have not stated thair case in a form which the average person in the street can understand, and this has caused an uprising of "Anti" groups all over the country spreading their viciously negative spin on the subject, pretty well unchallenged to the point that I myself realloy do not know which way to lean. Tidying up the tea leaves a bit, the arguments against, seem to be as follows.

 

1) "When I see all those windmills on the top of the hill near us,. . .either NONE or only a couple of them seem to be rotating . . . Surely this must a waste of money putting them there in the first place"

 

2) "All of these turbines are manufactured in Germany, and other places in Europe, Why not make them here in the UK and employ UK workers ? "

 

3) "It is a proven fact (Is it ? ) that these windfarms all around our hilltops and shorelines completely spoil the views and ruin the landscape, reduce property values and they never work when it's windy. . .AND they are only capable of producing nought point five percent of the total required electricity in the whole UK ( ? )

 

4) "They are an environmental disaster for Birds and other wildlife " ( I'd like to know how many foxes, voles, deer, cows pigs and sheep get sliced and diced. . .)

 

5) "We are only doing this because a handful of Green Party lunatics want us to go back to medieval times and live in mud huts with no TVs. . . "

 

6) There is NOTHING wrong with nuclear power,. .it's the cleanest electricity we've ever had " ( Oh yeah,. . .do you want all the hot waste buried in a hole in YOUR back garden ? )

 

That seems to be about it for the Anti lobby. . . . . and there doesn't seem to be any will to put the positive side of the argument. Modelmaker's excellent post provides an insight into what they can actually DO for a given grid system, and it's OK for me, I can understand ( most ) of it, but Joe public won't.

 

Interesting thread anyway. . . . . trust a bleeding helicopter jockey to come up with it, ah well, can't have everything (! )

 

Thanks HIC. Vastly ( to me anyway ) interesting subject.

 

Phil

 

 

[Methusala]

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDQQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fenvironment%2F2014%2Fdec%2F12%2Fburdekin-hydro-power-project-scrapped-over-renewable-energy-target-concerns&ei=huH7VJy7GIHymQWDnIGgCg&usg=AFQjCNGc7NyHvso_fC2FFu-8nU8P3p92SQ&sig2=OYt4bGCYQKtDgRdLwIgBDQ&bvm=bv.87611401,d.dGY

 

Try this link to see what can hapen to viable projects when governments won't play a consistent hand on renewables

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

That's good news Meth, the taxpayers (and their children) in this country are spent out. About time these 'Green' projects learned they have to stand on their own feet. Once they can make it economically viable to do with private money all the best for them.

 

 

[Methusala]

Your'e correct GG. Under this govt's slash & burn economic policies the kids won't have jobs. Looked at the (un)employment figures lately. Regards Don

 

 

[Happyflyer]

That's good news Meth, the taxpayers (and their children) in this country are spent out. About time these 'Green' projects learned they have to stand on their own feet. Once they can make it economically viable to do with private money all the best for them.

Do any of you oil, gas and coal men have them greenie solar panels? As I fly around the country I see thousands of houses with them. They needed some public funds to get to a critical mass but are now becoming cheaper and more affordable with no public funding and contributing large amounts of electricity to the grid. Also they don't create turbulence, real or imagined.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

We have heaps of roof space and a desire to be self sufficient but the numbers for solar have never stacked up for us.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

The libs know that higher unemployment forces wages down.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Do any of you oil, gas and coal men have them greenie solar panels? As I fly around the country I see thousands of houses with them. They needed some public funds to get to a critical mass but are now becoming cheaper and more affordable with no public funding and contributing large amounts of electricity to the grid. Also they don't create turbulence, real or imagined.

Yes I have Solar panels.

 

 

[Marty_d]

It always amuses me when people bring up the old "wind turbines kill birds" line. If you want to save birds, ban cats.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Your'e correct GG. Under this govt's slash & burn economic policies the kids won't have jobs. Looked at the (un)employment figures lately. Regards Don

That's disappointing Don. Hard to beat hydro as a source of electricity. The biggest cost (the dam) is already in place and water is surging down the pipes. What a waste. What a short-sighted government.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Do any of you oil, gas and coal men have them greenie solar panels?

Like you and everyone else reading this I am a direct or indirect user of oil, gas and coal. All wonderful natural products! I don't personally have PV solar panels but also don't have a problem with them provided the purchaser pays for them and doesn't receive subsidies from other folks electric bills (typically poorer people who cant afford PV panels or renters).

 

BTW wind turbines sometimes switch to solar mode, pretty funny and very 'Green' (which has become to mean by definition 'scam' and 'unintended consequences'):

 

 

 

[Phil Perry]

We have heaps of roof space and a desire to be self sufficient but the numbers for solar have never stacked up for us.

A thought suddenly struck me. . . . why can't Solar and Hydro be combined, . . .when I lived in Oz, those solarheart roof panels were al the rage for heating your domestic hot water system, why not use that, and couple the run-off to a little hydro generator, ? ? ? See ?. . .problem solved.

 

 

[Marty_d]

A thought suddenly struck me. . . . why can't Solar and Hydro be combined, . . .when I lived in Oz, those solarheart roof panels were al the rage for heating your domestic hot water system, why not use that, and couple the run-off to a little hydro generator, ? ? ? See ?. . .problem solved.

Very little generator if you're talking about the hot water coming back from the roof.

 

We have a little solar installation, only 1.2kW (we want to expand soon) but also a Hills vacuum tube solar hot water setup. This has been brilliant, we've turned off the hot water switch on the switchboard for weeks on end during summer and when the sun's on it you can hear the hot water cylinder boiling.

 

Bloke who installed it said one of his customers (single man) only switched his hot water on for 2 hours one year. Obviously family of 5 uses a bit more hot water.

 

 

[SDQDI]

A combination of technologies would work well if set up properly.

 

A high and low hydro dam setup in partnership with solar and wind, you could use the hydro basically as a battery (the bigger the dams you are able to use the better power storage) when the sun was shining or wind was blowing you could use the power generated to pump the water up to the high dam so it was ready to be used to generate whenever needed.

 

Locations could vary, I guess you would need a hill or at least a rise in terrain but otherwise could nearly be set up in most places

 

Maybe the hydro setup in the snowies already use a similar idea?

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

A combination of technologies would work well if set up properly.A high and low hydro dam setup in partnership with solar and wind, you could use the hydro basically as a battery (the bigger the dams you are able to use the better power storage) when the sun was shining or wind was blowing you could use the power generated to pump the water up to the high dam so it was ready to be used to generate whenever needed.

 

Locations could vary, I guess you would need a hill or at least a rise in terrain but otherwise could nearly be set up in most places

 

Maybe the hydro setup in the snowies already use a similar idea?

They do, but capacity is limited.

I built my own solar hot water panel around four old phone box windows. It only cost about $200 to build and has heated the water reliably for almost twenty years. It's very basic technology but gets the water scalding hot.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Well done O.K. . . . . .I love bush engineering. . . . . .

 

 

[AVOCET]

We have thought about utilising the unused hot water , but even if the waters boiling hot , its still not hot enough , and the capacities not there ,

 

So , not hot enough , for any worthwhile electric generation ,

 

Pity though ,

 

I thought ,as Phill, that having that " spare" capacity , could be used , especially in summer ,

 

But the "numbers " dont stack up !

 

I like the idea of pumping water to a head , and , IF , you had the height and dam capacity , well , got me thinking !

 

Mike

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Brine pools have big potential in this country. Dig a shallow dam, line it with cheap black plastic and fill it with salty water. Cover it with a thin film of evaporation retardant and the sun does the work. The brine gets scalding hot very quickly and is a great overnight energy store. The heat can be used in industrial processes, to drive turbines, etc.