Sport Pilot Magazine

[pmccarthy]

Too much bull for me....

 

 

[bull]

Too much bull for me....

And ME RAA has become way to much BULL for me too,as i,m not a quasy GA pilot who cant pass a medical who is destroying a freedom for affordable aviation,just look at your plane ,,,,,thats NOT an ULTRALIGHT it is a sports aircraft and should be treated as such............

 

 

[jetjr]

Bull, so form your group and go for it, i wish you success

 

You might find it a bit harder than you think

 

CASA would love to divide the largest group of aviators

 

Would be best not criticising board members and costs they incur, they donate plenty of time and the one who comes here to talk doesnt deserve it.

 

Ironic you are attacking Andy, firstly no longer on the board, second he was placed there along the same logic as you are arguing.

 

I believe, and could be wrong, he and others were talking breakaway group too at one stage but felt more could be achieved from inside existing framework

 

 

[fly_tornado]

The RAA is just following the money, people just aren't coming to flying looking for the basic ultralight experience anymore.

 

 

[bull]

Would be best not criticising board members and costs they incur, they donate plenty of time and the one who comes here to talk doesnt deserve it. Why not letjr,,what are they scared of about open financial disclosure to members ie costs of travel/motels hire cars etc all this should be open and accountable

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

Would be best not criticising board members and costs they incur, they donate plenty of time and the one who comes here to talk doesnt deserve it. Why not letjr,,what are they scared of about open financial disclosure to members ie costs of travel/motels hire cars etc all this should be open and accountable

 

 

Go to the Members only area of RAA website - Financials - every month's expenditure is there. You can see the breakdown as follows:

 

 

 

Board Expense:-

 

 

• Accommodation
   
   
  
• Travel Reimbursement
   
   
  
• Other Expenses
   
   
  
• Meals & Beverages
   
   
  
• Secretarial - Expenses
   
   
  
• Elections
   
   
  
• Telecards
   
   
  
• Meeting - Expenses
   
   
  
• Treasurer Expenses
   
   
  
• President Expenses
   
   
  

 

 

Meetings

 

• RAAus AGM
   
   
  
• RAAus Speical Members Meeting
   
   
  
• Other Meetings/Conferences
   
   
  

 

 

The current Board has also put an end to spouses' expenses being covered for meetings, fly-ins etc. The Board members don't receive a stipend for their voluntary service - if they are required to attend a meeting in Canberra from their home in Perth, Darwin, North Qld, Tasmania; it is only fair that their basic expenses are covered (accommodation, travel etc most of which is organised by the RAA office). Have a read and then start an informed discussion.

 

 

 

Sue

 

 

[bull]

Go to the Members only area of RAA website - Financials - every month's expenditure is there. You can see the breakdown as follows: Thank you flyingvista that was informative ,still a lot of wasted money there if you really look .....

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Bull, I can guarantee you we certainly don't stay in flash motels, and we sure as hell don't travel first class either, back in economy eating peanuts with everybody else I can assure you !.......Most people convieniently forget board members are unpaid volenteers, doing it generally to see the organization survives.

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

The constitution requires 2 face to face meetings. No matter where you hold them, the Board have to travel. There are 13 of them. Given the distance it is not possible to fly in & out for a one day, over-nights come into it. We expect the President to be up front & centre on issues such as Jab engines, CASA liaison, media interviews and meeting the people. Most of the Board have jobs or businesses and have to take time off to attend. As Maj Millard says, they don't get the red carpet treatment, nor do they want it, as they are aware it is members' money being spent, and they too are members. If you want to reduce the expenditure, the constitution would have to be changed, the geographic spread of Board members has to change or the number reduced. That is in the hands of the members.

 

 

 

If you want an alternative 'minimum aircraft' association, it could only survive if it did not issue licences and therefore oversee FTFs and I suspect there being so few of the 95.10 types left that it would be a very small club indeed. Setting up an alternative body is not as easy as it sounds. It could not exist without CASA's Sport Aviation Office approval as a Self Administering Organisation, and that would require a good deal of paperwork to show safety & compliance (think Ops & Tech manuals) and management. If you think you can run a national organisation with only volunteers who fund their work out of their own pockets, then you are going to be very disappointed.

 

 

 

Sue

 

 

[bull]

Thank you Sue and Major for the info ,and i ,m sorry for my comments ,but i feel that the 95,10 ers are being forgotten and its all about fast/better bigger planes now and because of the costs involved in this direction someone who wants to just fly for the pleasure of flying {and not really go anywhere] is dragged into this fee increases etc and the whole reason for the formation of the AUF in the first place is being forgotten as the GA brigade have taken over the running of RAA and are trying to force us out of a movement that was started by the 95.10 ers in the first place thats all.

 

 

[bull]

And no offence meant to anybody ,but maybe some of the board who have only flown around in spam cans or plastic fantastics should jump in a 95.10 machine and just feel the feeling of really flying with the wind in your face { awesome }and the machine responding through the seat of your pants ,just an idea so that we dont get forgotten.

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

There are a number of current RAA Board members who have flown 95-10, if not the majority. I don't know every one, but I guess Middo, Eugene, Michael Apps, Rod Birrell, Major Millard, Trevor Bange, Ed Smith and others who have been around a long time, started on 95-10s.

 

 

 

The 95-10s are not forgotten, they are just disappearing. We have a Scout. My husband is now too heavy to get it off the ground (although I still could) but it is hanging up in the shed with little will to pull it out and re-cover the wings. Same with the Turbulent also hanging from the shed roof - all the glued joints are suspect due to age, and little will to do the massive job to get it airworthy. The Karasport is operable, but requires re-rigging and a lot of paperwork (plans, dataset etc) before RAA will allow continued registration.

 

 

 

I can't see how allowing 2 seaters; kit or factory built modern aircraft is stopping the 95-10s - I think we bought our demise on ourselves. 95-10 is one of the most complex segments of RAA. It is easy to register mass produced planes, but by their very nature (scratch built, own design, plans built, tweaked and altered, one-offs etc) each 95-10 has to be individually assessed.

 

 

 

Flying has also become more sociable, people wanting 2 seats to take a mate, to go places, women also want to participate; wives and girlfriends wanting to savour the experience their partners find so attractive. People are less likely to make things these days. They want the instant solution right out of the box, and have the money to do it. Sadly, that means less 'minimum aircraft'.

 

 

[bull]

Thanks Sue and you are so right and it hurts to see,maybe you should donate those 95 machines to the holbrook museam so that they can be displayed so people can see the foundations of RAA ,just an idea cheers

 

 

[turboplanner]

bull, I have made at least two attempts to get the rag and tube people to come together on this forum and discuss any issues which are holding back this section, because I don't believe the board or the association are putting impediments, or costs, in the way of affordable flying.

 

On the two occasions where it looked like a conversation might get going, no one came up with any financial impediment to flying at all, no one came up with any evidence of where the pseudo GA aircraft and members were squeezing them out, and both threads petered out very quickly.

 

The truth is, you can still build your aircraft and you can still fly your aircraft.

 

As for the electronic magazine, I also operate a prepaid modem to get fast download speeds, and sometimes work right through the night with a continuous live download. For that I buy modem time from Telstra in $100.00 blocks and it costs me between $5.00 and $7.50 for the whole night.

 

In my local shipping centre there once was a large Newsagent, with three long aisles, six displays, around 20 metres long, with magazines from all round the world. It has disappeared and today there is a short line of daily newspapers in the Supermarket tobacco section.

 

Time to move into the 21st Century.

 

 

[dazza 38]

The constitution requires 2 face to face meetings. No matter where you hold them, the Board have to travel. There are 13 of them. Given the distance it is not possible to fly in & out for a one day, over-nights come into it. We expect the President to be up front & centre on issues such as Jab engines, CASA liaison, media interviews and meeting the people. Most of the Board have jobs or businesses and have to take time off to attend. As Maj Millard says, they don't get the red carpet treatment, nor do they want it, as they are aware it is members' money being spent, and they too are members. If you want to reduce the expenditure, the constitution would have to be changed, the geographic spread of Board members has to change or the number reduced. That is in the hands of the members. 

 

If you want an alternative 'minimum aircraft' association, it could only survive if it did not issue licences and therefore oversee FTFs and I suspect there being so few of the 95.10 types left that it would be a very small club indeed. Setting up an alternative body is not as easy as it sounds. It could not exist without CASA's Sport Aviation Office approval as a Self Administering Organisation, and that would require a good deal of paperwork to show safety & compliance (think Ops & Tech manuals) and management. If you think you can run a national organisation with only volunteers who fund their work out of their own pockets, then you are going to be very disappointed.

 

 

 

Sue

The RAA cannot issue licenses either, they can only issue certificates.

 

 

[rankamateur]

There are a number of current RAA Board members who have flown 95-10, if not the majority. I don't know every one, but I guess Middo, Eugene, Michael Apps, Rod Birrell, Major Millard, Trevor Bange, Ed Smith and others who have been around a long time, started on 95-10s.

Tony King dropped in at my place for an overnighter and fuel stop (one of many no doubt) on his flight to Natfly in his Fisher Koala the year before last. I think the board are well versed in basic flying, but representing the majority of members whose beards are too sparse for wind in the face flying. He tried for a big turn out of light types at Natfly that year and got very little response even though he led by an outstanding example.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

That's correct.... the 2010 Natfly featured the 95.10 aircraft, and few turned up even in good WX. I did run into several ex 95.10 drivers from the past who I assume had driven in, and there were some real legends amoungst them going right back to the first scouts etc..... and before that the feed in hang- glider days. The 2 stroke maintenance seminar that I presented that year was very well attended as was the 912 one I also presented.

 

And yes most if not all Board members with a couple of exceptions are past 95.10 drivers or owners. I myself started UL flying in California whilst working there in 1982 and trained in and flew their FAR 103 machines, a group roughly equilivelent to our 95.10. Both groups I might add still exist, and the 103 movement in the US is currently experiencing a major comeback as demonstrated by two very active groups on FB, who actively support the continuation and flying of the earlier machines. They are making a big comeback and I for one are very envious as I flew many of those machines and will never forget just how much fun they were and are. I still have an FAR 103 machine in storage which I bought back to Oz with me.

 

I might add from my experience in the 80s that there were some earlier machines that were decidedly dangerous to one's future well being, and are best left in a dusty shed or barn !........we have advanced of course which is human nature, but neither the RAAus or other organizations have ever stopped supporting the earlier machines..which is why we still have the 95.10 catogory.

 

 

[bull]

Thanks all,i,ll leave this thread now as i spiral down in flames alone outnumbered in a firefight i have been deleted by the 21st century {turbo why should someone who does not fly to flyins or long distances have to fund extras they dont use via fee increases and the loss of a paper mag,that is a serious pleasure for MOST members ,and for some the only reason they keep up their membership}And as i said before no offence meant to anyone i just thought this was important,,,,I was wrong........................

 

 

[bull]

And just an aside ,,has anyone tried to open and use a paper chart in an open cockpit machine or seen the lack of space to store paper ersa,s etc that we are REQUIRED to carry and use if we would like to attend flyins etc .This not only impractical ,but also dangerous especially in a pusher aircraft ,, and the reliability of modern gps/tablets need to be addressed {turbo take note} and maybe to allow more 95.10 machines to attend an exemption to carry and use paper should be investigated,,,the 95.10 machines are not dissapearing they are still out there, just to much impractical rules to0 attend ,so most just say bugger it let the plastics/spam cans do their thing ,i,ll just fly around the paddock...........Also being made to feel like lepers the rag and tube mob have a bit of pride and that hurts too.

 

 

[DGL Fox]

And just an aside ,,has anyone tried to open and use a paper chart in an open cockpit machine or seen the lack of space to store paper ersa,s etc that we are REQUIRED to carry and use if we would like to attend flyins etc .This not only impractical ,but also dangerous especially in a pusher aircraft ,, and the reliability of modern gps/tablets need to be addressed {turbo take note} and maybe to allow more 95.10 machines to attend an exemption to carry and use paper should be investigated,,,the 95.10 machines are not dissapearing they are still out there, just to much impractical rules to0 attend ,so most just say bugger it let the plastics/spam cans do their thing ,i,ll just fly around the paddock...........Also being made to feel like lepers the rag and tube mob have a bit of pride and that hurts too.

Bull,

Yes I am sure it is difficult to open a paper map but how do you navigate if you don't want to use paper and you don't trust or want to use electronic devices...so what do want to use..what did they use back in the old days to navigate...guess work? navigate by the the sun? follow the birds?

 

IMO you guys are very important in our ranks, you guys started it all, I think you are selling us all short by saying we are just ignoring you and we treat you like lepers..I would love to see more of you fellas in flyins but it is you that have to make the effort for us to see and admire what you fly...did you flyin to Old Station recently?

 

David

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Bull, thing will be changing, give it 5 years and none of the board will have any 95.10 interest. I agree about the need for GPS training, paper maps are obsolete technology.

 

 

[turboplanner]

And just an aside ,,has anyone tried to open and use a paper chart in an open cockpit machine or seen the lack of space to store paper ersa,s etc that we are REQUIRED to carry and use if we would like to attend flyins etc .This not only impractical ,but also dangerous especially in a pusher aircraft ,, and the reliability of modern gps/tablets need to be addressed {turbo take note} and maybe to allow more 95.10 machines to attend an exemption to carry and use paper should be investigated,,,the 95.10 machines are not dissapearing they are still out there, just to much impractical rules to0 attend ,so most just say bugger it let the plastics/spam cans do their thing ,i,ll just fly around the paddock...........Also being made to feel like lepers the rag and tube mob have a bit of pride and that hurts too.

Now you're taking a shot at both paper and electronic in the same post!

 

Paper charts have been used in cockpits since the beginning of aviation. There are techniques you can use to handle them, which are usually taught during navigation training, starting with clear overlay which allows multiple routes to be marked in chinagraph, and stops most of the flapping........talk to an old hand.

 

I'm not sure what I need to take note of about gps/tablets, but here's a link to a fairly well specified GA aircraft which crashed due to gps error: https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/24535/AO200402797.pdf

 

 

[facthunter]

What we don't need is a "them and US" thing. We must all stick together. Tolerence and understanding of the other's point of view. I don't see a lot of impediments to the earlier stuff but as visla says they can't just be dragged out and flown without a lot of repair and thought. Bull don't feel bad for a moment . You made some good points. Nev

 

 

[flyerme]

I'm working on generating interest in the 95:10 with flyins, radio ads,podcast-( check out for my 95.10 promo www.goflying.net/go-flying-australia-podcast-episode-011-ww1-replica-aircraft-owner-and-author-of-the-diary-of-jack-flyer.html. - also working on an Independent movie -Jack flyer ;) And will start a flying vintage ultralight museum over next few years ( donations welcome for restore).

 

 

 

[rankamateur]

That's correct.... the 2010 Natfly featured the 95.10 aircraft, and few turned up even in good WX.

Was it that long ago? Well Ross time sure flies by while you aren't paying enough attention.

 

Thanks all,i,ll leave this thread now as i spiral down in flames alone outnumbered in a firefight ,,,,I was wrong........................

A shame you feel so alone, I agree with nearly everything you have said right down to the pleasure the lowly member like me used to get from my paper magazine, and what other value if any I glean from my membership. You just mis-cued when you targeted the current board members, they have done a fair job representing the majority of the members, just a great shame more of them don't use stone-age internet access.