Costs of Ownership

[hjubm2]

Hi all,

 

I'm looking for information from the more knowledgeable people on here as to the costs of owning and running an aircraft. I'm looking into either a Cessna 172 or 182 at the moment but I can't find too much info about the ownership costs in Australia. More specifically I am looking for rough costings for 100 hourly maintenance etc, basically any information people can offer. Hopefully someone on here has had experience with one of these aircraft for a few years that can help me work out all the costs.

 

Thanks

 

 

[facthunter]

Purchasing it is the least of your worries, and it will always cost more than you hoped or expected from there on. Nev

 

 

[Pearo]

I watch this thread with baited breath, because the 182 is high up on the list of aircraft that I am interested in purchasing.

 

 

[ben87r]

I don't really know anything but, our LAME at work reckons scheduled maintenance on a C210 (yes I know, will be more then a 182) is around the $125+ an hour, that then leaves un scheduled. I just spent the afternoon helping him change out a 200hr alternator that buggered up to fit a 4k refurbished one.

 

 

[nickduncs84]

After 6 months in our mooney syndicate, I can safely say that there is no way I would want to buy a used aircraft on my own. The purchase price is irrelevant. Hangar and insurance will add up to 1k a month and the annual will likely be 10k plus. That's a couple of grand a month before you've left the ground. The reality is that old birds do need a lot of work and on top of that there is a lot of bs work that had to be done on certified planes to keep casa happy.

 

So the mooney is good for me as I only have to cough up 1/5th of the cost, but when it comes time to owning my own seat outright, it will be either something Ra Aus or GA experimental. If I was after a 4 seater I'd be looking at an rv10. You'll have a much nicer, newer aircraft for about the same price.

 

Just my 2 cents. If you are in the know with what aviation costs or have plenty to spend, then ignore me as I'm sure this is useless info. But if you're new to aviation or aircraft ownership, I'd make sure you speak to people who own a 182 to get their feedback. Might be better posting on pprune, but you'll likely get a bunch of grumpy old buggers complaining that they have answered the same question before blah blah blah.

 

 

[hjubm2]

Thanks for all the replies so far. I'm looking at this from a commercial point of view, the aim is to use the aircraft for scenic flights so I'm trying to work out as any of the hidden costs etc as possible to work out if it's viable at this stage or not.

 

 

[poteroo]

Thanks for all the replies so far. I'm looking at this from a commercial point of view, the aim is to use the aircraft for scenic flights so I'm trying to work out as any of the hidden costs etc as possible to work out if it's viable at this stage or not.

C182's are not cheap to operate. It depends on whether you plan to use a Continental 0-470 powered 182, (pre 1985), or a Lycoming IO-540 powered model 1997 onward. Fuel consumption is similar - but maintenance different. The older aircraft will all need SIDS to be completed. They also have engines which experience cylinder glazing unless flown hard - not what you'll likely do on scenic. Low hours pilots also have more accidents with C182's - many hit nosewheel first and firewall damage is common.

 

If it was me choosing the aircraft, I'd be inclined to opt for a 180HP conversion of a model C172N or P, (probably costing you $80-120k), or go for a C172S with 180HP (much higher cost of course... perhaps upward of $150k?). These will give you the ability to lift 3 pax in most conditions, and achieve 110kts around the scenic. These are simple to fly, cheaper to operate, and on short trips - the flight times are not that much less than a C182. The TBO is also higher, and the fuel burn considerably less (10-12 LPH).

 

These are simply opinions, although I did own a C180 for 5 yrs and a C182 for 12 so am reasonably conversant with costs.

 

happy days,

 

 

[hjubm2]

C182's are not cheap to operate. It depends on whether you plan to use a Continental 0-470 powered 182, (pre 1985), or a Lycoming IO-540 powered model 1997 onward. Fuel consumption is similar - but maintenance different. The older aircraft will all need SIDS to be completed. They also have engines which experience cylinder glazing unless flown hard - not what you'll likely do on scenic. Low hours pilots also have more accidents with C182's - many hit nosewheel first and firewall damage is common.If it was me choosing the aircraft, I'd be inclined to opt for a 180HP conversion of a model C172N or P, (probably costing you $80-120k), or go for a C172S with 180HP (much higher cost of course... perhaps upward of $150k?). These will give you the ability to lift 3 pax in most conditions, and achieve 110kts around the scenic. These are simple to fly, cheaper to operate, and on short trips - the flight times are not that much less than a C182. The TBO is also higher, and the fuel burn considerably less (10-12 LPH).

 

These are simply opinions, although I did own a C180 for 5 yrs and a C182 for 12 so am reasonably conversant with costs.

 

happy days,

I have been looking at the 172 N and P models except with the standard 160HP engine but was afraid that their is not enough useful load for 3 pax plus fuel hence also looking at the 182 but the 180HP conversion may be an option. Whichever I end up going for I am ideally going to have all SID's have been completed before I purchase the aircraft. I have also considered leasing an aircraft for a couple years but have not looked into that option too much yet.

 

Thanks

 

 

[ben87r]

Don't forget that when you're doing your calcs, that there will be a large amount over the ideal weight. I would think a 172 would be a push for commercial ops unless trying to make money on 2 pax. Just my 2 cents.

 

 

[GAFA]

Considering most scenic/joy flights are between 30 to 60mins long there is no problem carrying the pilot plus 3 paying adults in a C172.

 

 

[ben87r]

What about when all 3 are at 90-100kg? I've not flown the type, but would have thought that would have been a push.

 

 

[poteroo]

What about when all 3 are at 90-100kg? I've not flown the type, but would have thought that would have been a push.

The 180HP conversion also has a 40 kg increase in GW, (part of which is used up by the heavier 0-360 engine). Scenics are very easy to run with around 60-70L fuel, which allows for adequate load. Of course, if the pax roll up as 110-125kg individuals, the question is more - are they able to get into the aircraft without you having to lift them in. (you need to consider pax mobility because it could be a significant brake on unloading in an emergency). happy days,

 

 

[Pearo]

WRT to pax weight, I notice a lot of websites like redballon etc. put a limit on max pax weight for joy flights, usually 100kg depending on aircraft.

 

I was personally looking at fuel injected lyco 182, post 200o model. My main interest is touring however. Still a couple of years away before I decided, will fly the club 182 for a while first and then decided.

 

 

[GAFA]

What about when all 3 are at 90-100kg? I've not flown the type, but would have thought that would have been a push.

Back in my GA days the flying school I worked in Bankstown had the only C172s, C182 and C206 on the airport so I did a lot of scenic flights in all 3 types. However most were done in the C172s.

 

In general most C172 flights fell into the following categories;

 

1. 2 pax ( young male taking his girlfriend up)

 

2. 2 pax (a dad/ mum taking their son/daughter for a fly)

 

3. 3 pax (young male taking his girlfriend and she brings a friend along for support)

 

4. 3 pax ( two young males and 1 female)

 

5. 3 pax (a dad/mum taking their 2 kids for for a fly)

 

Never once had 90-100kg blokes turn up and ask for a joy flight. If they did you would limit the flight to 30 mins and then you could carry them. Plus after 30 mins the two blokes in the back would want to get out as it would be rather tight in there.

 

Given CASA's proposed changes to scenic flights ie no AOC required I'm looking at doing the same idea and using a C172. The problem with the C182 is the extra cost of maintenance on the CSU plus the extra 2 cylinders (ie more spark plugs) and the extra fuel burn. If you need to carry 4 adults and bags all the time over a reasonable distance then C182 is the way to go. However if you are looking at doing 30-60 mins scenic flights then you can't beat the C172.

 

 

[scre80]

I would love to know anyone's costs for a RA Aus aircraft, it would also be interesting to see the comparison with a GA.

 

 

[SDQDI]

I've been working on around 50$ hour which should include everything filters, fuel, scheduled maintenance. It doesn't always cover un scheduled surprises of course but for the hornet that has worked out fairly accurate.

 

Since last January I've done 135 hrs so working on that gives me $6750 which roughly divided

 

Fuel (something that varies a lot depending on price as well as usage, I can poke around for 15 LPh or push at 24lph) averaged at 20lph and $1:30 per litre is around $3510 if I round that up to $3750 that covers fuel at $1:38 pl which then leaves 3000 for maintenance.

 

I do a oil and filter change every 33.33333333333(you get the idea) hours which I don't have the exact costs for but say 50$ for oil and 50$ for filter and add another 50$ for good measure gives you 150$ per 33 hrs so four changes since January equals 600$ which leaves $2400

 

I just had the hornet back to taree for an annual checkup and they replaced my windscreen and door screens, did the service and also found a few things I had missed (which is the whole idea of getting it double checked) like an engine mount brace which was broken (so embarrassed I missed something like that but that is what happens when you check your own plane over and over) anyway all in all it was around $3500 (which was good value for the hours that were put in) which is only 1000$ over my total hourly budget which I think is pretty good.

 

So it does depend an awful lot on a lot of things which are very variable but it is a rough guide for a self maintained (except of course the odd visit to taree) hornet:thumb up:

 

 

[gareth lacey]

so far costs for us including insurance,hangar,maintenance Ra rego, $8000, not including Ra cert fees and fuel(cheapest part of flying is fuel)divided between 2 , cheaper than my mates 30ft cruiser

 

 

[scre80]

so far costs for us including insurance,hangar,maintenance Ra rego, $8000, not including Ra cert fees and fuel(cheapest part of flying is fuel)divided between 2 , cheaper than my mates 30ft cruiser

Which aircraft is this for?

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Here is my Texan cost.

 

Texan with 100hp 912ULS

 

Flying 60 hours/year or 5 hours/month

 

Item Cost/hr

 

Fuel 15 litres/hour @ $ 1.55 $ 23.25

 

Hangar $/month $ 195.00 $ 39.00

 

Insurance 12 months $ 2,726.50 $ 45.44

 

Annual maintenance 12 months $ 497.11 $ 8.29

 

Oil change 50 hours $ 294.19 $ 5.88

 

Battery 5 years $ 200.00 $ 0.67

 

RAAus Rego 1 12 months $ 130.00 $ 2.17

 

Total $ 124.69

 

 

[fly_tornado]

$7500 a year for the texan?

 

 

[pmccarthy]

It is $7481 per year by the table above. Those are direct costs only, I didn't include depreciation. Say that is $100,000 over 20 years, then $5,000 per year or $83.33 per hour. Which takes the total cost of running it to $208.03 per hour. Of course, depreciation hits harder in the early years, probably $20,000 as you fly it home from the importer.

 

But the incremental cost, when you decide to fly on a particular day, is only fuel and the oil change which total $29.13 per hour. The rest happens whether or not you fly.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

$7500 a year is about the ball park figure, which i think most people need to budget for. Which is pretty good considering an annual on a cessna is an open cheque

 

 

[PA.]

Optimistically you could look at it the first hour you fly each year cost you $5,762.74 but each hour thereafter only costs $29.13

 

The more you use your plane the less per hour depreciation costs.

 

This tells me suck it up for the first hour then rack up another hundred or two at $29.13 How cheap is that?

 

 

[ben87r]

Back in my GA days the flying school I worked in Bankstown had the only C172s, C182 and C206 on the airport so I did a lot of scenic flights in all 3 types. However most were done in the C172s.In general most C172 flights fell into the following categories;

 

1. 2 pax ( young male taking his girlfriend up)

 

2. 2 pax (a dad/ mum taking their son/daughter for a fly)

 

3. 3 pax (young male taking his girlfriend and she brings a friend along for support)

 

4. 3 pax ( two young males and 1 female)

 

5. 3 pax (a dad/mum taking their 2 kids for for a fly)

 

Never once had 90-100kg blokes turn up and ask for a joy flight. If they did you would limit the flight to 30 mins and then you could carry them. Plus after 30 mins the two blokes in the back would want to get out as it would be rather tight in there.

 

Given CASA's proposed changes to scenic flights ie no AOC required I'm looking at doing the same idea and using a C172. The problem with the C182 is the extra cost of maintenance on the CSU plus the extra 2 cylinders (ie more spark plugs) and the extra fuel burn. If you need to carry 4 adults and bags all the time over a reasonable distance then C182 is the way to go. However if you are looking at doing 30-60 mins scenic flights then you can't beat the C172.

That's interesting to note GAFA, I too was thinking of the idea with the changes but didn't consider theC172 an option (Still wouldn't be for myself with what I would like to do), will be interesting to see what happens when every man and his dog running around with their own or a cheap cross hired 50K AC doing scenic's.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

will be a boost for GA as it will drop the cost dramatically