RA-Aus RPC to CASA RPL

[dazza 38]

I know I have taught SC and HSC english and still require an English test... work that **** out...CASA says its because an aircraft in CTA may not be able to speak english properly....

 

FFS doenst that mean they need an english test not me!

I wonder if CASA realise that we are from Australia and not Austria?

 

 

[DrZoos]

haha glitchy phone is causing KAOS

 

 

[Ada Elle]

For those in Sydney and looking for the cheapest way to convert (I didn't choose any of these options)

 

Medical: $225 was the cheapest I could find ($75 to CASA, $150 to DAME)

 

There is a school at Bankstown with Foxbats at $230/hr dual; may be useful if you have Foxbat experience so you don't need conversion

 

1 hr of instrument sim time: $120

 

CTA/CTX: out of bankstown/camden, probably a trip to Canberra at about 1.5 hrs each way

 

ELP6 assessment: $90

 

I combined my GA conversion with tailwheel and unusual attitude recovery in a Citabria instead; I haven't done my AFR yet (will see if I can use the tailwheel endo when I get it as the AFR, as the rules stipulate, and finish the tailwheel when I do aerobatics training).

 

 

[DrZoos]

I wonder if CASA realise that we are from Australia and not Austria?

In all seriousness they don't know their asshole from their earhole..so i'm guessing not.

 

 

[DrZoos]

Shags we have 50 Chinese students who have passed the CASA english test and honestly i could understand your but hole better than most of them for the first 6 months.

 

Thier spoken English is worse than a Kindergarten kid and their understanding of your English is almost non existent. Yet they get an CPL and ATP licence with that qual and you cant even get a CTA without it.

 

If ever there was the biggest inequality in aviation this is it...we have people who speak english like its a 16th language with a qualification and people who have spoken it since birth having to pay $200 to be ticked off.

 

Even an RSA course with 8 hours of tuition and an exam does not cost $200...so how on earth does it take $200 to tick off a native english speaker to speak english cost $200+

 

 

[dazza 38]

It is pointless having the english test because all the foreigners who can't speak or understand english for crap are still going to be signed off by the RTO's. The schools are not going to shoot themselves in the foot and lose business by failing them.

 

 

[DrZoos]

It is pointless having the english test because all the foreigners who can't speak or understand english for crap are still going to be signed off by the RTO's. The schools are not going to shoot themselves in the foot and lose business by failing them.

That's exactly what is happening...they are not actually allowed to come into Australia by a lot of the flight schools until they have passed the test... but when they get here they are so poor with english that the flight schools are giving them tuition almost full time tuition just to get them to the standard where the flight instructors can actually communicate with them...

On the radio is another story all together.. most are ready for solo navs well before they can speak English to a level that can be remotely understood by other pilots. When they start we cannot understand 10% of their calls and they clog the radio trying to string together simple calls.

 

Im not being racist, I really support this practice of training OS pilots as many of my friends are employed by them , but its an absolute joke they are getting ticked off as English proficient and we cant even prove proficiency without a $200 test... I would guarantee 99% of Australian children in kindergarten could speak and understand english better...and i would guarantee 95% of you could not understand even one radi call of these guys.

 

I have been to china and I loved it... I have tried to talk with these guys about china and piloting and its near impossible even when your not in an aircraft... I can understand some of what they say, but their understanding of what I say is virtually non existent. Yet these guys are a certified Level 6 English....what a joke!

 

 

[dazza 38]

That's exactly what is happening...they are not actually allowed to come into Australia by a lot of the flight schools until they have passed the test... but when they get here they are so poor with english that the flight schools are giving them tuition almost full time tuition just to get them to the standard where the flight instructors can actually communicate with them...On the radio is another story all together.. most are ready for solo navs well before they can speak English to a level that can be remotely understood by other pilots. When they start we cannot understand 10% of their calls and they clog the radio trying to string together simple calls.

 

Im not being racist, I really support this practice of training OS pilots as many of my friends are employed by them , but its an absolute joke they are getting ticked off as English proficient and we cant even prove proficiency without a $200 test... I would guarantee 99% of Australian children in kindergarten could speak and understand english better...and i would guarantee 95% of you could not understand even one radi call of these guys.

 

I have been to china and I loved it... I have tried to talk with these guys about china and piloting and its near impossible even when your not in an aircraft... I can understand some of what they say, but their understanding of what I say is virtually non existent. Yet these guys are a certified Level 6 English....what a joke!

We go on about aviation safety and IMO these overseas students who are not up to an acceptable english standard is one of our biggest safety threats.

 

 

[djpacro]

I don't see where the 2 hrs IF requirement is - neither for transition from RAA nor training FA from scratch for an RPL (I know it was there for the old GFPT).

 

 

[Happyflyer]

I don't see where the 2 hrs IF requirement is - neither for transition from RAA nor training FA from scratch for an RPL (I know it was there for the old GFPT).

Its only required for the RPL nav endorsement. See 61.495.

 

 

[DrZoos]

We go on about aviation safety and IMO these overseas students who are not up to an acceptable english standard is one of our biggest safety threats.

They certainly are around here... we get the Nav students from other schools a few hundred NM away coming by solo... when they cant answer they jst go silent...so you ask...them something simple like their current altitude and they suddenly answer...

Its more a case of we have to know where they are and just avoid them, because other than our altitude, most have no clue what we are saying

 

 

[dazza 38]

They certainly are around here... we get the Nav students from other schools a few hundred NM away coming by solo... when they cant answer they jst go silent...so you ask...them something simple like their current altitude and they suddenly answer...Its more a case of we have to know where they are and just avoid them, because other than our altitude, most have no clue what we are saying

I hope CASA is reading this.

 

 

[facthunter]

Happy flyer. Could save your life. It certainly saved mine. Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

The overseas pupils have other problems as well as English language. It's always been taken as read SOME people shouldn't fly aeroplanes, but that's not accepted by some who having paid money, it's expected to guarantee (buy) a pass.

 

Having trained overseas at times where English is not the local language, I can sympathise with the problems overseas pupils have, but English is the international standard language, so if these people fly internationally they are going to have to know and understand English at least in the standard terms in common aviation use. Expecting us to learn how to "guess" what they are saying is a fool concept.

 

Not giving position when asked is not confined to foreign student pilots, Our locals who are NOT students are good at going silent, and often, IF they DO reply, it's wrong, so you are looking where they are not. Serious safety concern that needs attention.. Nev

 

 

[DrZoos]

Nev they are getting better and better as they get further along with the training...in fact by the time they are fully qualified, Im sure they will be able to speak and understand to the level required... The problem is the interim when they are dangerous and inexperienced and cant communicate... often they have instructors on board as a safe back up...

 

But that presents two problems... it significantly ads to the stress of other pilots ie us as we are struggling to communicate with them and it clogs up an already very very congested CTAF, because Port Macquarie and Taree are on the same frequency for some horrendous reason only know to CASA. 33nm apart I think is the CASA concern. But form our perspective that 13nm separation would be a godsend to change CTAF...

 

Another concern is that by the time they are solo many still struggle... they get the normal calls such as heading, altitude distance and time, but they have no clue when it comes to any pilot negotiations, like changing track or sequence or similar things that go on between pilots regularly.

 

I too really feel for them as I know how overworked the trainee pilot is in the cockpit. I cant imagine how hard it must be... But i think the FTF's are doing the students and themselves a big disservice by trying to train them when the English skills are simply not sufficient..

 

But the bit that still erks me the most is us being told to travel to an examiner and pay $200 for the level 6 english (to ensure we can understand poor english)

 

 

[Nobody]

I don't know why people are paying money for the english language assessment. If you are an "expert speaker" you just need the form signed by an appropriate testing officer. I was chatting to the CFI where I was training and asked what I had to do to pass the exam. he said you just did and signed my form there and then.

 

 

[DrZoos]

I don't know why people are paying money for the english language assessment. If you are an "expert speaker" you just need the form signed by an appropriate testing officer. I was chatting to the CFI where I was training and asked what I had to do to pass the exam. he said you just did and signed my form there and then.

Was that your Level 6 ?? If so what FTF if you don't mind... I might have to drop buy with a 6 puck of chosen bevirages and convince him over those that i speeeeks peruct englursh

 

 

[Ada Elle]

For the FE/CFI to get the training to sign the form, CASA charges $240. CFIs may or may not want to recoup some money for this.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Happy flyer. Could save your life. It certainly saved mine. Nev

Okay, I was just pointing out to djpacro where the requirement was in Part 61. I don't quite see why you gave it a "funny".

 

 

[DrZoos]

Just kidding...

 

Your meant to be the happy flyer.

 

 

[Ada Elle]

But the bit that still erks me the most is us being told to travel to an examiner and pay $200 for the level 6 english (to ensure we can understand poor english)

1. ELP4+ is an ICAO requirement for all ICAO licenses. It's pretty reasonable to require it of all subICAO licenses too. All PPLs/CPLs/ATPLs getting Part61 licenses will need to do it.

 

2. The amount charged isn't CASA-dictated; Nobody and I have both paid a lot less than $200 (a nice round number) to get an ELP6. Getting an ELP4 is a lot more expensive. The amount I was quoted from another testing centre was less than $100.

 

3. Overseas student pilot English is meant to be at a certain standard (IELTS 5.5, or similar), and pass an interview with the CFI - so you should be having words with the CFI of the school with all the overseas students (or saying something to CASA).

 

4. The ELP6 assessment is essentially a radio practical listening test, which we in RAA land don't have (we have the flight radio theory test). So a CFI who has listened to you talk on the radio a few times would be well placed to sign you off, whereas a newcomer to a school might need the formal testing.

 

CASA aren't picking on you.

 

 

[K-man]

A few of us flew in to Yarrawonga some time back at the same time an overseas student was also inbound. Suffice to say he totally disrupted the other approaches, was totally silent when asked about his position and caused others to get out of the way until we were sure he had landed.

 

On the ground, it was apparent that the student was accompanied by an instructor so one of our guys went over to have a quiet chat. Unfortunately the instructor couldn't speak English either. I have no idea where they were from and we didn't take note of the Rego.

 

As to paying for the English test, I was astonished that I had to pay more than $100 to demonstrate that I could understand someone, who couldn't speak English properly, attempting to speak English. Didn't someone once say "it's a mad, mad world"?

 

 

[Happyflyer]

1. ELP4+ is an ICAO requirement for all ICAO licenses. It's pretty reasonable to require it of all subICAO licenses too. All PPLs/CPLs/ATPLs getting Part61 licenses will need to do it.2. The amount charged isn't CASA-dictated; Nobody and I have both paid a lot less than $200 (a nice round number) to get an ELP6. Getting an ELP4 is a lot more expensive. The amount I was quoted from another testing centre was less than $100.

3. Overseas student pilot English is meant to be at a certain standard (IELTS 5.5, or similar), and pass an interview with the CFI - so you should be having words with the CFI of the school with all the overseas students (or saying something to CASA).

 

4. The ELP6 assessment is essentially a radio practical listening test, which we in RAA land don't have (we have the flight radio theory test). So a CFI who has listened to you talk on the radio a few times would be well placed to sign you off, whereas a newcomer to a school might need the formal testing.

 

CASA aren't picking on you.

All good except most CFI/testing officers have approval to issue level 6. Unsurprisingly for CASA this doesn't automatically mean they can give out level 4. Some CFI's will just make the system work and have a listen for a bit and give you level 6. Some will go by the book as requried by CASA ( and who can blame them ) and make you listen to the tape and also recored your responces. As others have said it's all a load of rubbish and the people who shouldn't get throught still do anyway. However , it's no good complaining here. Complain to CASA, send Mark Skidmore an email, that's the only way things will change.

 

 

[facthunter]

Happy flyer, I've looked back four times and can't find where I said you were funny in relation to your "quote" . I don't use "funny" as a put down but I can't find any trace of it anyhow.Nev

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Happy flyer, I've looked back four times and can't find where I said you were funny in relation to your "quote" . I don't use "funny" as a put down but I can't find any trace of it anyhow.Nev

It was against my post 60 yesterday but not there now. Either there are gremlins or I'm potty, or both. Not sure if anyone else saw it. Thanks for replying. Cheers.