Ultralight in sea off Noosa

[slb]

One was flown to Australia, from UK by a blind man, another by a disabled man and another flew over Everest towing a hang-glider, so I have to agree with Tex

 

 

[alf jessup]

I am never getting in a trike again they don't look right to me and the risk of some idiot causing a tuck and tumble with you in it does not bear thinking about. I personally have seen a trike instructor doing steep turns, what appeared to be loops except they were slightly off to one side ( not quite right over the top) but certainly breaking all the rules mentioned in earlier posts.

Teckair,

 

Each to their own, I have over 760hrs in a trike before turning to the dark side, the trike is as others have said as safe if not safer than some aircraft.

 

The weak link is not the trike its the pilot flying it.

 

Yep there have been a few trike accidents of late but none of them would not have been the trikes fault.

 

2 dead at Cootamundra a few years back, flying in the dark and hitting a windmill will do that too you, ferry flight with floats strapped to the side of it and an engine out, yep dead in a quarry, pilot ferrying a new trike back from Airbornes factory, incapacitated resulting in a death, my old trike I sold to a fellow stalled turning final, to low and to slow and too tight a turn, resulted in the loss of his life, not the trikes fault and that is just to name a few.

 

Just as many deaths in 3 axis and very rarely the aircrafts fault.

 

Alf

 

 

[Teckair]

How much time do you have as pic in trikes?

None.

 

 

[Teckair]

Trikes are as safe as the next aircraft in the hands of competent pilots.

I never said they were not. My comments were about personal preferences which hopefully are still allowed. --edited.mod.

 

 

[ev17ifly2]

I think ego also starts to creep into it as some consider being certified in a trike is not real flying Nor as demanding as piloting a 3 axis machine.

 

I know a CFI who in the last 6 months has trained and signed off a Qantas pilot and a UAE captain in trikes. Both said they wanted to get back to some real flying.

 

 

[Downunder]

I'm told trikes are more demanding as they have no rudder......

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Nope....no rudder so you don't need to worry about yaw, the concept of billowshift, on which trikes and hang gliders work, takes care of any developing yaw....They are just plain fun....I wouldn't want to go long distance, nor for any long period of time, and winter in the southern climes can be uncomfortable....just as summer in the north in a trike is just plain magic...too hot...climb a 1000ft and suddenly adiabatic lapse provides free air-conditioning.... The long distance thing is a function of the light weight and big wing m^2 which means turbulence is a bit more noticeable, and if you are inclined to fight every upset that turbulence causes you'll get tired in the arms/shoulders quickly... Also if your only achieving between 40 and 60 knots airspeed a 20kt headwind kills any penetration speed.....For what they are designed for they are great fun.. Motorcycle of the air in my view..... They can be made to go faster than 40-60kts but then you have the whole open cockpit thing.....IMHO open cockpits weren't meant to go faster than about 80kts, the windspeed/noise becomes fatiguing in my opinion.

 

Andy

 

 

[Downunder]

Yes but a rudder makes landing in a cross wind much easier I'm told.

 

Know a couple of regular trike flyers who won't fly if more than 30 or 40 degrees crosswind.

 

Just not worth the risk they recon.

 

 

[kasper]

Each to their own on crosswind comfort. 3axis or WS the capability and comfort of the pilot may be lower than the capability of the aircraft in anothers hands.

 

As for crosswind - crab offset approach (generally not as pronounced as 3axis - not as much side area) then kick it straight just before touchdown - works.

 

Capability of a trike is actually pretty good in some areas - not as fast as 3axis generally but I will happily operate a 65knt cruise 415kg two seat trike off 150m ... you have to go to pretty specialist 3axis for that sort of very safe performance but for a trike thats normal. For the single seater I am happy to operate of 100m of short grass. Horses for courses.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

stall speed in a modern trike is circa 35kts, and approach speed is circa 45kts....if you have a crosswind component of 20kts, and instead of choosing to land crosswind instead choose to land into wind your ground speed at touchdown could be as low as say 20kts......if your resultant fwd speed is 20kts (circa 37kmph) landing across a strip is hardly a challenge and rollout will be in the range of m not 10's of m nor 100's of m....if the crosswind isn't exactly at 90 degrees then even better land directly into the wind and the roll out run available will be even longer.....The bottom line is the moment your mains touchdown, because you have no rudder you will immediately turn to point into prior ground track so its not like you have a choice, but you do have a choice to land on the extreme left of the runway if the crosswind is from the right, so you have the longest distance available.....It sounds scary when written but is anything but when executed.....in fact take off with a crosswind can be more scarey in real life as again the aircraft immediately on rotation turns into wind...if that's a 40 plus degree crosswind then if your not ready for it (thinking passenger here) it scare the hell out of you if you suddenly appear to be pointing at tall trees of a hangar etc....while you are pointing, your ground track isn't vastly different from rwy heading.....

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Kasper sometimes language can be confusing "kicking" isn't something trike pilots do cause as said there's nothing to kick (until the nosewheel is on the ground and by then its all too late)... As I said previously the kick in what your describing is when the aircraft has a different heading vs ground track...when the mains hit the 2 have to become the same. In a 3 axis we use rudder just above the ground for that, in a trike because the mains are well behind Cof G (conceptually if not in reality cause everything in a trike hangs off the C of G of the wing) they can if the nose wheel is kept off quickly align the 2

 

Andy

 

 

[Teckair]

I think ego also starts to creep into it as some consider being certified in a trike is not real flying Nor as demanding as piloting a 3 axis machine.

That is not my view and not what I said.

[campslive]

I have flown both 3 axis and trikes and always return to trikes , there not every ones cup of tea ,but most people frown without trying ?

 

most people tend to turn to trikes because of there short runway capability and low fuel burn (the edge x with 582 and wizard 2 wing uses around 12 ltrs a hr or less at 40-45 knots) and not expensive to maintain and can also be packed up onto a trailer and towed where ever or taken on holidays etc ,

 

 

[webbm]

Back on topic - anyone know the condition of the pilot?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

One was flown to Australia, from UK by a blind man, another by a disabled man and another flew over Everest towing a hang-glider,

.... Waiting for punchline to joke ......

 

 

[alf jessup]

The only pucker factor I found in my 760hrs in trikes was taxiing on the ground in a stiff breeze especially xwind, bit like a motorbike, unstable standing still but stable moving, trike stable and fully controllable in the air and vulnerable on the ground in the wind, joys of having a big wing area and a light weight.

 

 

[slb]

Back on topic - anyone know the condition of the pilot?

Heard through the grapevine that he had an 8 hour operation, but have not heard anything since. Hope he pulls through OK

 

 

[slb]

.... Waiting for punchline to joke ......

no punchline - just agreeing with Tex

 

Trikes are as safe as the next aircraft in the hands of competent pilots.

[cscotthendry]

Spoke to my instructor on Easter Sunday. At that time, the pilot was still in a coma with serious injuries. From what he described how the accident played out, the trike was in a very rapid spiral fairly quickly from the beginning of the event.

 

From what he described, the trike went into a VERY rapid spiral, did quite a number of turns and on exiting the spiral immediately went into a loop. After coming out of the loop at around 100 feet, it did a wingover and straight into the water at high speed straight down. The trike sank within a couple of seconds with the pilot still on board. My instructor relayed a distress call through a passing aircraft and obvserved rescue craft setting out from shore. He orbited the wreck to guide the shore party, then headed back to Noosa airport where he is based. He then contacted police and the pilot's next of kin.

 

This next part is speculation on my part and not to be relied upon for anything. In this accident, the trike was fitted with a new strutted wing after being professionally repaired. This was the first flight this pilot had made with this wing. After seeing the video of the near crash of another trike with a strutted wing, that someone else posted here and on another thread, I was shocked how quickly that trike ended up in a spiral dive. I am NOT implying that there is a problem with strutted wings, but they are different to fly than wire-braced wings.

 

IMO, from the spin and subsequent maneuvres the trike performed that my instructor described, I would be surprised if the pilot was conscious during most of the descent due to extreme G forces.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Spoke to my instructor on Easter Sunday. At that time, the pilot was still in a coma with serious injuries. From what he described how the accident played out, the trike was in a very rapid spiral fairly quickly from the beginning of the event.From what he described, the trike went into a VERY rapid spiral, did quite a number of turns and on exiting the spiral immediately went into a loop. After coming out of the loop at around 100 feet, it did a wingover and straight into the water at high speed straight down. The trike sank within a couple of seconds with the pilot still on board. My instructor relayed a distress call through a passing aircraft and obvserved rescue craft setting out from shore. He orbited the wreck to guide the shore party, then headed back to Noosa airport where he is based. He then contacted police and the pilot's next of kin.

 

This next part is speculation on my part and not to be relied upon for anything. In this accident, the trike was fitted with a new strutted wing after being professionally repaired. This was the first flight this pilot had made with this wing. After seeing the video of the near crash of another trike with a strutted wing, that someone else posted here and on another thread, I was shocked how quickly that trike ended up in a spiral dive. I am NOT implying that there is a problem with strutted wings, but they are different to fly than wire-braced wings.

 

IMO, from the spin and subsequent maneuvres the trike performed that my instructor described, I would be surprised if the pilot was conscious during most of the descent due to extreme G forces.

Interesting......

 

 

[Phil Perry]

So how do you get upside down in a Trike ??........

I could SHOW YOU Ross,. . . but, trust me, you WOULDN'T like it.

 

Two immediate possibilities, without trying to solve the accident with no info, . . .but just to answer your direct question.

 

1) Overcooked Steep turn / wingover which went wrong, ie, airspeed lost. . . .Ususal cause ? Over exuberant flying, coupled with insufficient experience OR. . .unexpected wind gust.

 

2) Sharp stall from level flight, then pulling back on the bar too hard and fast, = Tuck ( Bunt ). . . .Usual cause ? . . . normally, Inexperience / lack of understanding of how the aircraft flies / poor training..

 

3) A failure of some part of the structure, resulting in total loss of control. . . . Usual cause ? ? ? ? ? Don't know what the appliance was.

 

These scenarios will probably result in a negative load being placed on the wing, for which it is not designed.

 

Please note ** this is purely to answer YOUR question, and doesn't seem to have much relevance in this particular case, since spiral diving in trikes, in some types will result in a stable spiral at a reasonable speed, whereas the trike I own, will accellerate into a corkscrew, then pass thru VNE very rapidly causing the wings to fold back like a paper dart..

 

Phil

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Well, that was certainly the case for me. Also, when I translated across from HGFA, they were going through the political horrors similar to what RA-Aus has just been through. When I moved to RAA, it was partly to get away from the politics, but then it was like Deja Vu.But I agree with the idea that people moving from a trike, are probably more likely to go 3 axis, witness myself and Alf.

Funny you should say that Scott,. . . . I know three blokes who have just gone the other way ! ! ! Yes,. . .to the dark side they have gone ! ! ! And bought trikes.

 

I took up Flexwing / Weightshift trike flying in 1985, after seeing a couple of them fly low over my house, just after I'd returned to the UK. My Brother went out and bought one, ( ! ) non pilot, . . .and I thought I might as well join him so I bought a half share. ( 503, 2 stroke Rotax powered ) he went though all of the training, but at the time, MY PPL covered them anyway, but I had an hour with the local instructor and the silly bar$tard sent me solo. WELL. . .I'd never crapped myself in a flying machine before ( or since ! ) but it really wasn't enough. We should really have concentrated A LOT MORE on the STEERING WITH YOUR FEET on the runway bit,. . .which is of course, opposite to a standard stick and rudder appliance. Damned thing took me four attempts to get it back on the ground on my first solo ! ! ! !

 

However, as other pilots will no doubt attest, after a while, you don't even think about it, . . .rather like getting out of your car and onto your Honda fireblade . . .it's just different, but the brain seems to cope with it.

 

More importantly Scott,. . .if someone wanted to move from trikes, apart from paramoteur,. . .where else would they go I wonder. . . .( just musing )

 

Happy Days ( sorry Pot ) And I fervently hope that the bloke pulls through OK.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

.... Waiting for punchline to joke ......

Remember your 'Q' codes Bex ? ? ? ( Don't know if they have those in Cathay. . .) well, these, as I'm sure that you, as a suave, sophisticated man about town will already know,. . .were invented in the days of Morse code, to quickly pass a message. Y'know,. . .QNH, QFE, and all that. . . .

 

I remember one, I think it might have been QGT . . . ( could be wrong there ) which was meant to tell the operator on the ground " I am sorry I cannot comply with your request as I am towing a glider. . ."

 

If it was being tugged over a tall hill, I dunno the code for that. . . .

 

 

[pmccarthy]

One code, QRM, could have been helpful in the UK pedophile cases. "Are you being interfered with?"

 

 

[Phil Perry]

One code, QRM, could have been helpful in the UK pedophile cases. "Are you being interfered with?"

Quite So PM, . . . but we'd better leave these amusing Q codes for another thread, could probably fill one !

 

Phil