Light Aircraft down near Camden

[bexrbetter]

You probably will!

Welcome to Rec Flying you controversial bastard!

 

 

[Roscoe]

The J160 and J170 etc. carry 135 litres of useable fuel. That is one of the many reasons Jabs are such a great plane. I'll bet YOUR boots it's a through bolt or similar cause.

What was the departure point?

 

 

[nong]

The J160 and J170 etc. carry 135 litres of useable fuel. That is one of the many reasons Jabs are such a great plane. I'll bet YOUR boots it's a through bolt or similar cause.

They normally keep running if its only a through bolt. Next guess?

 

 

[alf jessup]

They normally keep running if its only a through bolt. Next guess?

Could be anything, valve, Flywheel bolts who knows, just proved another point if your going down that's the plane to increase your odds of surviving in.

 

 

[DrZoos]

Here we go again...yawn

 

prob less likely to happen in a rotax, but if it did happen id like to be in a jab airframe thats for sure...

 

 

[gandalph]

If you're going to fly over tiger country, don't. If you're going to crash in tiger country, do it in a Jab.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Welcome to Rec Flying you controversial bastard!

Paulo is Spanish and he hates being called bastido more than anything else in the world. He is also a world champion stiletto thrower.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Jabiru7252]

.. and stronger seats, belts, cockpit protection etc. in case you do go down.

 

The crash hasn't actually happened there yet then, click on the Telly in about an hour's time.

If that's the case, why doesn't somebody warn them!!!

 

 

[Downunder]

750kg, weight wise, has some negatives. More momentum and potentially higher stall.....

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Paulo is Spanish and he hates being called "bastido" more than anything else in the world.

Lucky I called him "Bastard" then.

 

 

[deadstick]

A few years ago, My j160 snapped two through bolts( upper and lower fwd number 2 cyl) while a friend was flying it, did not keep running, he said it spluttered at 200rpm for a bit then quit. All at 200 feet on takeoff!!!

 

 

[turboplanner]

what a mess

For those who keep preaching how strong the cabin area is, take a look at this photo. There has been no frontal impact, and the wings have protected the cabin from a side impact.

In fact this is the best type of forced landing in trees you can have - where the wings and an unimportant section of fuselage take the hit. Under those circumstances, where the cabin has not taken a hit, it is not correct to tell people it is strong, and in doing so you run the risk of giving them a false sense of security, which could cost them dearly of they believe you.

 

Sure the statistics have been kind, except for the people injured and killed in Jab crashes, but the photos I've seen all show that the crash impact was not to the cabin area.

 

What we do know about fibreglass is that it is weight for weight stronger than aluminium; but it is not 50% stronger.

 

What we know about monococque construction is that it can be torsionaly stronger than space frame, but is not as good at resisting a localised impact as space frame.

 

Monococque fibreglass reinforced plastic will substantially deform in a crash, then either spring back into position, or if it has reached its limit will crack then fling parts off its main body. We can see here that the rear fuselage has substantially deformed, then split right up to the rear cabin area and flung off it's extremities. With a space frame, I would expect to see the rear fuselage and tail area still attached but at about a 20 degree angle.

 

A fibreglass reinforced plastic cone is very strong when impacting on either end, but like an eggshell when hit from the side.

 

In the case of a highwing aircraft side impact is offset by the wings if the crash site is high enough, but the occupants are vulnerable to stumps, rocks and ditches.

 

I've previously posted about a forced landing on a cultivated paddock in South Australia where a Jab finished up with the whole noes of the aircraft, dash and all on the ground and the occupants sitting there facing open air. If that had occurred before the roll finished the only protection they would have had was their knees.

 

Based on that crash, if you took a medium hit diagonally on the front, you could expect the same area to be wrenched away and you could still be ploughing into trees and stumps.

 

So while the Jab frame has been doing well, don't kid yourself you're in a Centurion tank; it still has to be made light enough to fly.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Recently a Jab Pilot who has his good wife as a passenger on his flights was asked if he had his significant other sign a CASA waiver form prior to each flight & leaves it with a responsibile person on the ground. He responded that he couldn't give care a shxt about the waiver form because he was an enviromentally concious person & didn't want another tree chopped down to create the necessary paper, & furthermore, in the event of a crash he was confident that both he & his wife would exit this planet together.So that begs the question, is CASA creating useless paperwork for themselves, that will end up being round filed, similar to what you do with scrap pieces of paper that you roll up in your hand like a tennis ball.

The piece of paper could be worth several million dollars.

 

It is to provide a warning to the occupant that not only is the aircraft not as safe and an RPT, but it is not as safe as other recreational aircraft, and outs some onlus on to the passenger if you are not negligent.

 

There are examples where a spouse has sued the other half, and there may be good reasons, such as children's welfare.

 

 

[jetjr]

Who is kidding themselves, its proven a very strong airframe with good survivability. The deformation is extensive indicating a pretty violent landing to me.

 

These two, like all others came out OK, which for all the armchair evaluation, is a great result.

 

Can you list the injuries and fatalities tou mentioned?

 

 

[Ron5335]

Look at the angle of the wings. This plane has stopped hard and fast, the fuselage is split behind the left wing, major damage.I wonder if National Parks will be charging them for removal and environmental damage of the river and some near extinct frog that only lives in the 100 meters around the crash site ?

It worse than that, it's almost "The Perfect Dark Cloud"

 

The area in mention is known as "The Nattai Wilderness Area" and is covered by 2 NSW Authorities, National Parks and Wildlife and The Sydney Water Catchment Authority and the attached link to the map, gives you an idea

 

how human friendly they are "Where you can go and Where You Can't Go"

 

http://www.sca.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/36375/Special-Areas-Brochure-Special-Areas-Map-October-2013.pdf

 

(Judging by the returning helicopters that were flying over The Oaks and heading for Bankstown, they were tracking from where it shows "WARRAGAMBA SPECIAL AREA" )

 

Added to this would be CASA'a interest (Via ATSB) in getting hold of the engine to defend their recent actions, and all this happened on Easter Eve when they all would have knocked off early and went into Government hibernation over Easter.

 

So it's all been put up there on the fan, but no one will be back in their offices until Tuesday to turn the fan on, then watch out !!!!!!

 

 

[Oscar]

My property is bordered by the Nattai, and I've been a firefighter for many years operating right through the Nattai and Yerranderie areas, and it is NOT - repeat NOT - an area to be flying over in any single-engined aircraft unless you keep sufficient height to glide to a clear area. There are very large areas of it where we cannot get the fire-trucks anywhere near.

 

This was a bad pilot decision mitigated by the crash-worthiness of the aircraft and aided by the fact that the pilot did a decent job of flying the thing into the crash as best (it appears) as could be managed in the circumstances. If travelling south from Camden there is a narrow corridor of reasonable country that roughly runs from The Oaks through to Mittagong; it happens to pass almost directly over my place and is very frequently used: on any decent day, I probably have half a dozen ultralights pass over near me. Consciously deciding to fly over that area, at that height, is a bloody stupid idea.

 

 

[dutchroll]

It's more than a little bit sad when people spruik the demonstrated crash-worthiness of a particular aircraft as one of its defining features.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

We dont know what brought particular Jab down yet, it could have been due to any number of things. As others have highlighted the obvious lesson for us all is the

 

route selection. There are several areas surrounding the Sydney basin that would not be much chop in a forced landing situation. We can 'generally' select routes that are more favoured, but not always. Some location RAA acft are pretty much 'forced' into areas of similar suckiness with regards to places to gracefully set down. William town, Coffs harbour and richmond to a lesser degree are all quite bad if you can't transit the airspace.

 

The reporting points for camden have their issues IMHO, one being over or close to the oaks, creates issues with acft not broadcasting or monitoring the oaks frequency and stooging on through their cct area. Mayfield is hard up against some rubbish country, and heading in from Picton puts you quite low over the hills and through some serious Glider country on the right days. The Menagle reporting point has you threading the needle between the drop Zone, Wedderburn and a nearby control step, but is by far the best country to fly over.

 

This jab may not have been inbound to camden, but regardless, the flying around this entire area needs to be planned well with all efforts to avoid the tiger country, and those reporting points if you are not inbound to camden.

 

I dont envy this pilot, he would have been faced with some pretty hard decisions, and not much time to consider them Taking a creek as your best option would have been a scary ride, and the outcome certainly not assured, even if it was in a tough aircraft. Perhpas the route wasn't the best, but hats off for keeping it real and living to fight another day.

 

 

[Oscar]

There's something else that doesn't hang quite right with me here - and it may just be inaccurate reporting BUT:

 

Apparently, the pilot took off at 1515 to 'go to Melbourne'. The prevailing winds were - around here (near Mittagong), westerly at an average 15 kph; further south, swinging southerly at 15 - 20 kph. I would think one should not have planned on more than about 90 kts ground speed for the trip.

 

Last light getting near Melbourne was 1739 - say, for prudence, 1715 - four hours. You might JUST squeak it in from Camden to Melbourne in four hours at 90 kts ground speed IF you fly the rhumb line - which you cannot do without traversing a LOT of bad area.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Interesting. Was he outbound from Yscn? I missed that part.

 

 

[Ron5335]

Well there one thing for certain, There wouldn't be any tigers in that area to worry about...... The Yowies would have

 

eaten them years ago..

 

 

[SDQDI]

There's something else that doesn't hang quite right with me here - and it may just be inaccurate reporting BUT:Apparently, the pilot took off at 1515 to 'go to Melbourne'. The prevailing winds were - around here (near Mittagong), westerly at an average 15 kph; further south, swinging southerly at 15 - 20 kph. I would think one should not have planned on more than about 90 kts ground speed for the trip.

 

Last light getting near Melbourne was 1739 - say, for prudence, 1715 - four hours. You might JUST squeak it in from Camden to Melbourne in four hours at 90 kts ground speed IF you fly the rhumb line - which you cannot do without traversing a LOT of bad area.

I wouldn't be worried about putting too much weight on that Oscar, I myself have taken off on longish trips when reaching the destination before dark wasn't guaranteed and often on a longer leg the winds will affect your ETA more or less than you expected (are they ever as forecasted?) but I am sure once on route and a firmer ETA is available you can always land at an earlier alternative (we should all be flying with alternative's in mind) if needed.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

If you think transiting the Sydney basin is difficult now OCTA, see how things go when Badgerys Creek airport and its associated airspace become active!

 

 

[Oscar]

Interesting. Was he outbound from Yscn? I missed that part.

Merv, see: http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/a-light-aircraft-crash-landed-in-the-nattai-national-park-after-its-engine-failed-with-two-people-on-board/story-fni0cx12-1227289453945

 

Slight misquote on my part, according to the report he crashed at 3.15, so might have been maybe 10 minutes max. into the flight? Still leaves it damn tight to get say to Lilydale...

 

That report also shows the complete horizontal stabiliser and elevator lying on the (relatively open!) ground, it's amazing the thing didn't go in nose-down vertically, the trees must have caught it completely. Very similar situation to the Wedderburn crash of years ago, though this time the engine stayed on...

 

 

[old man emu]

24-7852

Do we know who owns this, or where it is based? As far as I can recall, it is not one of Gostner's. I think it is a private owner.

 

OME