Light Aircraft down near Camden

[Birdseye]

I inadvertently made a comment a while ago when reviewing my steps in getting back into flying, that in a Foxbat it wasn't necessary to worry about a forced landing. My intent was that to say that they were an aeroplane which could easily be slotted into a tight spot, not a comment on the reliability of the Rotax.

 

 

[coljones]

One of Dave's is sitting in the usual maintenance hangar waiting for a new engine. The Chief Engineer told me the other day that he's had a gut full of the Jabiru company and their apparent avoidance of any meaningful discussion of the problems their engines are exhibiting.The Jab that did the George of the Jungle act the other week has been heli-lifted out of the bush and is sitting in the back of another hangar at Camden.

 

The good thing about learning to fly in a Jabiru is that you become very proficient in your recovery from engine failure technique. It's a bit like the old chestnut - there are two groups of pilots of airplanes with retractable undercarriages. Those who have had a gear up landing and those who are going to.

 

OME

Well, there are chief engineers and chief engineers and chief engineers. One once told me that if Gough got elected there would be no more elections. Some chief engineers are just a little too touchy.

I don't regard myself as being proficient in engine failures recoveries although I am intrigued by all this talk about how quiet it gets when the fan stops. Maybe in my next 300 hours. Or, perhaps, take up gliding to experience quiet solitude.

 

Have you worked out where the plane was going from and if there was fuel on board?

 

 

[coljones]

I inadvertently made a comment a while ago when reviewing my steps in getting back into flying, that in a Foxbat it wasn't necessary to worry about a forced landing. My intent was that to say that they were an aeroplane which could easily be slotted into a tight spot, not a comment on the reliability of the Rotax.

But slotting into that tight spot requires human intervention and if you don't worry yourself about forced landings and do some serious training that tight spot my come, and go, before your very eyes when you most need it. The training should include bringing the bird all the way down with the throttle off to 500 feet and on final to prove to yourself that you can get into that tight spot.

 

 

[jetjr]

Ozfergie, your unlikely to get a very balanced view here, theres lovers and haters of the brand. Both side have justifications for their feelings and truth is probably in the middle somewhere.

 

There are some here who have either had a terrible run with Jabiru engines and others who have had few problems at all.

 

Engine management and maintenence plays a significant role as does some ongoing design issues.

 

They are a great aircraft and good to learn in, probably make up a major portion of training aircraft until recently. As part of any training you should be trained and prepared for forced landing at all times. Other engines fail at around the same rate so you cant avoid the risk.

 

Jabiru aircraft have proven themselves to be a strong and safer than many airframes out there with very few injuries.

 

The actions by CASA and claims regarding reliability, that being the basis for the limitations, is at best based on questionable data which is not universally accepted as fact.

 

If you have a spare hour or two theres several threads here on it.

 

A recent SB required engines to have new bolts fitted at 500hs, this requires full strip, i have no doubts theres some training owners swallowing that pill right now and unhappy about it

 

 

[planesmaker]

A recent SB required engines to have new bolts fitted at 500hs, this requires full strip, i have no doubts theres some training owners swallowing that pill right now and unhappy about it

Jetjr replacing through bolts does not require complete strip. Did one not long ago that had a broken bolt( it had done less than 500 hrs!!!)

 

 

[jetjr]

Replacing front and rear studs as directed does and they are being upgraded in diameter too I think

 

Once done the 500hr requirement is gone. Only applies to training aircraft.

 

To clarify,

 

the case has to be split to replace 3/8 studs, bolts can be done on complete engine (but you have to do studs??)

 

Then this repeated every 500hrs

 

OR

 

have the engine drilled for 7/16 and replace it all once, new torque, washers and nuts

 

$$ would be up there with factory reco with all new piston, rocker etc etc upgrades wouldnt it?

 

 

[old man emu]

I think I'll jump onto my soap box and deliver my opinions of the Jabiru.

 

1. The Jabiru airframe is well designed and equal to the majority of other airframes in its class.

 

2. The Jabiru engine is, on the drawing board, well designed and equal to the majority of engines in its class.

 

3. The Jabiru engine is, in its metallurgical composition, questionable in some components.

 

4. The Jabiru Company appears to lack adequate quality control standards in its component acceptance and engine assembly procedures.

 

5. The Jabiru Company management appears to be adverse to listening to the advice of those in the aviation maintenance industry whose knowledge and experience permits them to give expert opinions.

 

6. The Jabiru Company management appears to have backed itself into a position where it seems that, on the advice of its Liability lawyers, it would be ruinous to engage in discussions with maintenance industry experts.

 

I lament the fact that an Australian company which has designed and built a class equaling airplane has, by an apparent stubborn attitude, given its product a bad name.

 

Am I a fan of the Jabiru? Yes.

 

Am I proud of the Jabiru? As a representation of Australian's ability to produce a product equal to any other country's product in the same class - Yes.

 

Would I fly a Jabiru? Yes

 

Would I own a Jabiru? Airframe - Yes, but I'd be constantly worried about the on-going costs of making the modifications required to what is, in reality, an experimental engine.

 

I hope that you see my opinion as a balanced appraisal of the Jabiru airplane. I think I have made it clear that, in my opinion, it is Jabiru Management that is letting this airplane down.

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

[Ozfergie]

Are you flying with Dave?

Yes - flying with Dave - and have no qualms at all about the safety of his J160 engine - although I have a way to go, I am trying to gather information and form opinions about ownership.

Thanks all for the replies.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Well it sounds like you have made up your mind:) Dave has been just as " unlucky" with his jabs as most other operators. He runs as tight a ship as you could find anywhere, and uses highly reputable engineers , and seems to suffer similar failure rates to the numbers found in the stats.

 

If his operation has issues, there's not much hope for the rest of us..

 

 

[Teckair]

I was told yesterday the plane in that crash was a Tecnam.

 

 

[Capn Wannabe]

I was told yesterday the plane in that crash was a Tecnam.

Nope....t'was a Jab.

 

 

[turboplanner]

A random issue is a random issue - like Russian Roulette.

 

NO ONE who claims they've had a good run, are careful, add oil to the fuel or spit on the prop can guarantee one second's extended life with a random issue event. That they do, is on their conscience.

 

 

[old man emu]

Dave has been just as " unlucky" with his jabs as most other operators. He runs as tight a ship as you could find anywhere, and uses highly reputable engineers ,

Thank you.

 

 

[gandalph]

On their conscience?

 

Surely someone who claims that they've had (past tense) a good run is giving an opinion validated by their experience. WTF does their conscience have to do with that?

 

I regret sounding like Bimbo of Brisbane, Pauline, but: Please explain.

 

 

[turboplanner]

In the big picture, of total engine sales, if there is a problem on some engines, and not on others, or if it occurs at different points of the engine's life cycle it is a random issue.

 

Where both factors are in play no one knows exactly IF it will happen, and no one knows when it will happen.

 

So an individual's experience isn't worth a crumpet, and is not the basis for telling someone else he will be safe.

 

 

[gandalph]

Carp!

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

In the big picture, of total engine sales, if there is a problem on some engines, and not on others, or if it occurs at different points of the engine's life cycle it is a random issue.Where both factors are in play no one knows exactly IF it will happen, and no one knows when it will happen.

So an individual's experience isn't worth a crumpet, and is not the basis for telling someone else he will be safe.

Probably true Turbs. Random factors abound, but we can thank the Americans in particular for exhaustive testing so they could predict the service life of many components.

A Boeing engineer investigating a 747 crash found a new bulkhead had been installed with a single row of rivets rather than the recommended double row. Testing data predicted a single row would fail after 10,000 hours in service. This particular one lasted over 12,000 before causing a catastrophic crash.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Probably true Turbs. Random factors abound, but we can thank the Americans in particular for exhaustive testing so they could predict the service life of many components.A Boeing engineer investigating a 747 crash found a new bulkhead had been installed with a single row of rivets rather than the recommended double row. Testing data predicted a single row would fail after 10,000 hours in service. This particular one lasted over 12,000 before causing a catastrophic crash.

That is how we like products to be designed, and certainly to be thrown out on the tip before any safety related component fails.

 

In many cases components will fail in a cluster - all around the same time. If that isn't satisfactory, we can redesign the component to push the failure point out, or if we know we can't fix it, and the failure is occurring too early we can budget for extra expenditure and fix the failure under warranty with minimum distress to the client.

 

However, occasionally we get a random failure, and that's a nightmare.

 

 

[deadstick]

So, is there any info on the cause of the failure yet?

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Info I have heard ( for what it's worth)

 

Aircraft flew for one flight of less than an hour after an overhaul last year.

 

Sat not flown for about 3 months

 

First flight - without any time in the circuit - headed straight off.

 

Engine ran for about 15 minutes. (the amount of time you would expect for a header tank to take to run dry)

 

The engine ( in the hangar on the trailer ) is reported to hand turn part of a rotation without problem. Range of travel limited by position of prop.

 

No public or private claim to Jabiru by pilot/owner as to cause or blame or request for compensation etc.

 

Make from that what you will.

 

 

[old man emu]

Gee! Perhaps the problem might have been with the wing-nut on the control column.

 

OME

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Would a claim be in the hands of their insurance company if it was a legal flight?

 

 

[Ron5335]

Engine ran for about 15 minutes. (the amount of time you would expect for a header tank to take to run dry)

The only problem is, I believe there is no fuel controller point between the wing tanks & the header tank, the only controller is from the header tank to the engine.

 

 

[jetjr]

Many have low fuel float in header tank, which probably makes them the safest system available, gives 15-20 minites warning

 

One fuel tap only which if off sees the engine stop in seconds

 

 

[elon]

It would be interesting to know if a fuel tester was found in the wreckage seen as it was sitting outside for quite a while prior to this flight. Possibly water in the fuel? The battery would also be a concern if it was no good and it was jump started for the flight. The engine would not have been able to be re-started if it had a gurgle during flight due to the water in the fuel.