David Taylor Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 G'day and happy Easter, I am not yet a pilot and as I have only recently become a member of your association and therefore possibly not in a strong position to be able to raise criticisms of your system, however the fact that I am not at least on my way to joining your ranks has in my frustration required me to make this post In January I was given the opportunity to experience a trial flight in a powered parachute, being a relatively safe and easy form of flight at a level that while not exactly cheap but within the scope of someone with the passion to chase it. I decided to chase it. It is now April and after researching the spor via the net. I have decide on the aircraft to fly, found an instructor with many years of experience to teach me, refinanced my house to secure my aircraft, designed and commissioned a trailer, commuted to the training, but still sitting here months after with out having started my training. The problem seems to be that my instructor with many years of experience in the industry can't start to teach me unless he has another instructor (CFI) oversee his instruction ? In 1982 after a comprehensive examination process I was certified as the 80th PADI open water scuba diver instructor in Australia. That meant I can teach and sign off as competent students that I had taught to be open water scuba divers What I currently face as a new entrant to the sport powered parachutes ( which is apparently the safest easiest form of flight ) is that I have to have the weather to be pretty much perfect, I have to be ready to fly at that time ( I live in Corinella) my instructor has to be ready to fly ( he is in Pakenham ) but to really complicate the proceeds and create a huge barrier to entry is that we have to have a third party, in my case I'm hoping a CFI who lives about 80kms from the instructor can be available, other wise I can't have my lesson. To do my 20hrs to get my pilot certificate we will have to get these logistics aligned every time Who thought up this level of complexity ? Has this been devised to only allow an elitist few to enter this sport ? Thirty years ago the diving industry realised that to grow the industry and bring people into the sport they needed instructors to encourage and teach people safely inthe sport of scuba diving. Look at the number of sport divers now, enjoying every weekend a sport that has a least the inherent dangers if not many more than the sport of powered parachutes Well for what it is worth, they are my thoughts, I'm bloody frustrated after becoming excited about becoming involved I this sport ( crikey I'm a customer ) and being blocked by rules that don't allow experienced instructors get on with the job of encouraging people into the sport Thanks for the opportunity to at least vent my frustration, I hope that I get the chance to learn to fly before I write off my losses and give it up David 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
503 Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 And 20 hrs is way too much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 That's probably in response to broken arms, legs, lines caught around props when people tried to operate like a normal aircraft. I would rate it as a fine weather sport with a lot of limitations. Might pay you to look at a normal e axis aircraft. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunder Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Welcome to aviation and a whole new level of bureaucracy in your life....... Maybe go 3 axis like turbo said then get a conversion. Something like 5 hours to get the conversion. It can end up being alot cheaper in the long run doing it this way, especially if you end up going 3 axis eventually. I know of a trike pilot who went trike then 3 axis and virtually had to pay twice. A lot better getting 3 axis then the other endorsements. I don't know about a CFI actually having to be there when you are training? Sounds fishy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 MotzartMerv lives and works south of Sydney and supervised training at Goodiwindi on the Queensland/New South Wales border. My CFI lives on the Sunshine Coast and supervised training at Mount Isa. Your instructor or your CFI maybe trying to make life more difficult for you than it needs to be. It may be that your instructor must be a Senior Instructor to work without physical supervision. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 This seems to be the main PPA website: http://www.australianppa.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=945 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 This seems to be the main PPA website:http://www.australianppa.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=945 Well that link speaks volumes for the safe, low cost convenient entry point to our sport, very encouraging. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerochute Kev Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Unfortunately these claims could be true, if you live within a stones throw of the only 7 PPC CFI's in Australia. Its not the Instructor or CFI making life hard, it is the RAA. I know of one recently rated instructor that managed to gain that rating at a cost of around $12,000 due to the distance he had to travel to train. Sometimes traveling 5 hours for half an hours training. Now finally rated, it is useless as he (and his student) has to do the same travel to do any training because he must be directly supervised by a CFI. I worked out at that rate his Senior Instructor rating will probably cost around $80,000. Bet he lets the rating lapse unless the rules are changed. The PPC community are currently lobbying the RAA for a change to the Op's manual to allow the sport to grow. See the attached link for the thread in the powered parachute forum. http://www.australianppa.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=5 (sorry if it didnt attach as a link, but copy and paste into your browser.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDQDI Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Wow, if that's not a recipe for forcing people to fly unlicensed/unregistered I don't know what is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerochute Kev Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Exactly SDQDI, that is why there are possibly as many PPC's being operated outside the Regs an within them. RAA has not kept up with the changes to recreational flying when PPC's were introduced and simply tried to absorb them into the current regulations that really do not suit type of aircraft they are. Mandating ridiculous requirements and then having no one that can actually do the certifications to make it right is a recipe for people to do what the hell they like as they can't comply anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryc Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 well I'm staggered, if this is how it works raa need it,s arse kicking 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultralights Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 i spoke to someone a while ago about getting into powered chutes, as he was a PPC flyer himself, as well as unpowered chute glider pilot, his advice was to go to the USA, get the training done in Hawaii, buy your setup over there, come back home, fly till your hearts content and keep your mouth shut.. and no videos. after reading the above, i can see why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nashy Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Turboplanner, I have been flying powered parachutes for over ten years and fly with and know many PPC pilots. I have never heard of this large amount of broken arms and legs???????????? There have been no records of these incidents with the RAA. Is this just another example of the lack of respect and uninformed comments we get from the general flying community towards PPCs ? Can you give some examples ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 You could probably refer to your own site for a start. I haven't looked at it for a couple of years, but you should be able to find examples. http://www.australianppa.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=945 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred cenko Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Turboplanner,I have been flying powered parachutes for over ten years and fly with and know many PPC pilots. I have never heard of this large amount of broken arms and legs???????????? There have been no records of these incidents with the RAA. Is this just another example of the lack of respect and uninformed comments we get from the general flying community towards PPCs ? Can you give some examples ? Well put Nashy,I could not agree more.Much more broken arms and legs flying the 3 axis fixed wing jabirus of late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerochute Kev Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 You're pretty hard to please Turbo, that link takes you to a post describing someone doing tight turns at low level, hitting the ground destroying the airframe and walking away uninjured. Try that in a Jab and see if you can get a similar result. Hardly showing how dangerous they are, in fact may just show how safe they are. All that post showed was the inexperience of the pilot, and that he still walked away afterwards. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 I was referring the person to his own site, not any particular subject matter that came up. Try clicking on APPA Home and go from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdseye Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 well I'm staggered, if this is how it works raa need it,s **** kicking Don't blame them , they are probably scared fartless by CASA into being restrictive. The gyroplane people are also just as bad. I asked about converting a non-Aus PPL to a RPL - can't do it they said. You first have to convert to a Aus PPL (and therefore have to go through the Class 2 nonsense) then downgrade it to a RPL. Now if that isn't totally screwed up, I'd have to ask what is. Australia has to be the most over-controlled nanny state that I've come across and its still only nudging second world status! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nashy Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Still can't see any references to broken arms or legs ??????? For the record, as far as I know there has not been a fatality in Australia in PPCs. PPCs are the fastest growing sector of RAA. They cost nothing to hanger at home. They can take off and land in very small areas. For me they are the ultimate form of flying. I also fly fixed wing aircraft and am always amazed at the comments and attitude from 3 axis pilots towards PPCs it seems that many 3 axis pilots consider themselves as a higher form of human than PPC pilots and I'm seeing that now on this site. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerochute Kev Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 I don't think they are scared of CASA Birdseye, I think they just do not consider the effect on aircraft other than the type they are familiar with when they change or introduce new rules. This is why it is so important that all major changes are put to members for comment before implementation and not just mandated without consultation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdseye Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Still can't see any references to broken arms or legs ???????For the record, as far as I know there has not been a fatality in Australia in PPCs. PPCs are the fastest growing sector of RAA. They cost nothing to hanger at home. They can take off and land in very small areas. For me they are the ultimate form of flying. I also fly fixed wing aircraft and am always amazed at the comments and attitude from 3 axis pilots towards PPCs it seems that many 3 axis pilots consider themselves as a higher form of human than PPC pilots and I'm seeing that now on this site. Go for it. Unless you come down in some town's high street, it's unlikely some CASA oik or other useless tool will know about you. Let's call it a risk based flight assessment - how likely is the risk of you getting caught? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdseye Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 I don't think they are scared of CASA Birdseye, I think they just do not consider the effect on aircraft other than the type they are familiar with when they change or introduce new rules. This is why it is so important that all major changes are put to members for comment before implementation and not just mandated without consultation. OK, swap "scared" with "ill-informed". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerochute Kev Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 That is probably the best description so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Taylor Posted April 5, 2015 Author Share Posted April 5, 2015 Thanks for the comments, it seems that it would be easier to to learn to fly in a 3 axis aircraft, I have over the years seen them and thought how cool are those guys/ girls and that and I would like to do it one day. It just worried me that if your motor went out you fall out of the sky, I can still free ascend from depth if I was stupid enough to run out of air diving. When I was introduced to the Powered parachute , I was attracted by the safety, ease of flight, ability to fly from basically a flat piece of ground in the country and the opportunity to enjoy this experience with like minded people when they get together, not to mention that where I live would provide great opportunities for flying along the coast. I have while waiting to get the instruction to fly been reading what I can get my hands on re flying these things and have gathered that alignment into the wind on takeoff and landing will assist not being dragged over by the wind the takeoff and landing phase which as I read is the most critical phase. I can only assume when I finally get instruction that as part of that that I will be trained on how to conduct the sport to help eliminate the need for broken arms and legs, I think the aircraft I have chosen will also assist. In the past few days I have been encouraged by some people in the sport who have a passion for it and are fighting to clear the obstructions preventing me from flying. I can't quite understand how the governing body of this sport has not identified that the safest, most accesable form of flying would be their greatest opportunity for growing the sport safely if that is their brief. Scuba diving is not without dangers, to dive a student has to understand and manage, currents, pressure ( every 10 metres depth = 1ATM+) Baratrauma of air spaces, ears and over expansion of lungs) excessive absorption of nitrogen into the blood stream leading to decompression sickness ( bends) and narcossis at depth ( rapture) blue orb syndrome, cold rough oceans, lots of critters and luckily not often some that could eat you All of these subjects are covered within the diving course, students are provided with information on what the dangers are, how to manage those issues, trained in a pool to demonstrate their ability & confidence in using the equipment and then taken out into the ocean to demonstrate again their understanding and proficiency of the lessons they have been taught. They are then certified as divers. The instructor who trains them would have demonstrated his compentency for training people along with his competency of his craft ie diving or perhaps flying before a board of examiners and then been given the instructors rating to go forth and introduce new people to enjoy the sport, no third party, the instructor has been signed of as competent Why can't flying a powered parachute be as easy ? I hope one day I can actually do it instead of just writing about my desire to do it (PS I'm a bloody potential customer ?? ) David 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nashy Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 You have the passion for it mate, don't let the politics get in the way. If you need any info from me you can give me a call ( Rob has my number ) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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