Jabiru 2210 engine

[Keenaviator]

From the Jabiru factory today, some information regarding a new engine. Looks interesting, not only new cast cylinders/heads but it looks like the induction is very different too.

 

As we keep saying the Research and Development never stops here at Jabiru. For the last 4 years the Jabiru engineers have been working on the development of the “2210” engine. It’s exciting news!!! There is still work to be done but we are edging closer to the possible launch of this new engine. We are planning to initially release it as an experimental engine. Eventually there will also be a six cylinder released as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

We have now accumulated just over 800 hours in test time and it is performing well. The engine has non corrosive aluminium cylinders with nickel and silicon carbide bores. These cylinders have three times the thermal conductivity of steel and the bores have very low friction and high wear resistance. The cast cylinders are more robust than the steel cylinders we currently use. We will keep you updated on the progress......... in the meantime we have attached some pictures for you of the “2210”

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bexrbetter]

4 years? I just want to say that I am not leading their team.

 

 

[planesmaker]

Looks like very long through bolts, head to head, interesting concept.

 

 

[billwoodmason]

Is that an oil return unit on the dip stick ? Looks like a good way to mount it.

 

 

[Guernsey]

Do Camit know about this?

 

Alan.

 

 

[gandalph]

A colleague with much more expertise and experience in these things than me has suggested that the cylinders appear to be a pressure casting and possibly/probably a derivative of 242 alloy and so good for about 250C. An improvement on the current alloy's temperature handling capability. He expressed some concern about the finning arrangement and suggested that it is likely to put the exhaust valve temp up, unless they've gone for high-conductivity valve seats. The higher temp is going to put the oil temp way up, in the rocker boxes; so they will need to increase the oil flow greatly . He was not very optimistic about this development saying that it will simply move the failure points rather than eliminating them.

 

 

[jetjr]

Current cylinders are steel

 

This looks to have new cylinders and old heads

 

I expect this is the "chimese engine" many have discussed.

 

Good to see progress, going to need more than one engine and 800 hrs though.

 

Camit mods way more developed than this.

 

I have one of those oil catch units......as a measure of effectiveness.....do you want it?

 

 

[gandalph]

Do Camit know about this?Alan.

I believe they do.

 

 

[Guernsey]

It's a shame that we can't as yet get a comment from 'Oscar'.

 

Alan.

 

 

[Virago]

Any increase in horsepower?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Any increase in horsepower?

Statically, doubtful as the port layout looks the same but it's possible that with better cooling the hot running hp is slightly better - or more technically specific, less loss of hp (a downside of hot air cooled engines).

 

I imagine the combustion chambers are the same as before too, more's the pity, the Jab chambers are not optimal and a few 'free' hp to be gained there with some rework.

 

 

[dazza 38]

It's a shame that we can't as yet get a comment from 'Oscar'.Alan.

You will get his bias report in about 3 weeks time.

 

 

[gandalph]

You will get his bias report in about 3 weeks time.

Hello Pot, have you met Kettle?

 

 

[Guest john]

The main items to address with respect to this new engine which is obviously still under RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT & which requires further & better particulars for interested personnel to consider are are as follows:

 

1. Have the crankcase through bolts been strengthened to prevent failure?

 

2. Have the flywheel bolts been strengthened to prevent failure?

 

3. Are the tappets, hydraulic or mechanical to prevent valve seat recession?

 

4. Are the new type cylinders, manufactured in Australia or overseas?

 

When the abovementioned queries have been provided with an acceptable answer then & only then can Owners & Pilots make an informed decision if the new Jab engine has moved forward or just sideways.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I genuinely think Oscar would have some good content to share.

 

1. Have the crankcase through bolts been strengthened to prevent failure?

2. Have the flywheel bolts been strengthened to prevent failure?

 

3. Are the tappets, hydraulic or mechanical to prevent valve seat recession?

 

4. Are the new type cylinders, manufactured in Australia or overseas?

1. It would appear they have made some attempt at change in the area.

 

2. Is that still a problem, I thought they had fixed it?

 

3. Has nothing to do with the issue, millions of hydraulic and millions of solid lifter engines have no issues. Cam ramp profile, valve rotation, spring weight and of course, material type are what counts.

 

4. Is that a big decision in the purchasing process as long as they function accordingly? .. and yes I prefer if they were made in Oz.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Hello Pot, have you met Kettle?

Ha ha, that's humour. I recognise that. Hows your Jab going ?

 

 

[gandalph]

Ha ha, that's humour. I recognise that. Hows your Jab going ?

No, that wasn't humour, just a gentle poke about hypocrisy. The Jab is coming along really well thanks.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

"Camit mods way more developed than this."

 

When you actually sit down and list the mods - camit vs current production jabiru - (as I have recently done ) the mods are almost all variations of the same thing with three major differences.

 

Somewhat complex to say but what I mean is they are all addressing the same issues from different directions. They have both redesigned the same areas but have decided on different ways to do it. Whose to say which way is best or will prove to be the best.

 

Jabiru have published a two page doc of all the changes and when I asked Ian Bent to list the changes they came out to about the same number and both were trying to solve the same problems - with different approaches. And both say their approach is the correct one.

 

There are however those 3 big differences that remain.

 

Camit remains with old technology solid lifters and jab have hydraulic lifters.

 

Jab state that the number of damaged engines they see from incorrect setting of rockers exceeds the problems they see from hydraulic lifters.

 

Jabiru have recessed pistons and camit have not.

 

Ian's argument to me seemed untenable. He said we believe we have fixed the valve problem so you don't need them. But he may be right or he may be wrong about that. But he can't guarantee 100% no sticking valve ever. He also said some valves break without sticking. That may be true but that's not the situation the new pistons are there to fix.

 

Finally camit beefed up the cylinders to try to stop going out of round. Jabs answer is that all cylinders go out of round even beefed up ones. The only way to stop it is more than 4 cylinder bolts. But both camit and jabs have only 4 bolts and the reason they both aren't changing is that it actually doesn't matter in most situations. That's what the rings are there for.

 

And that's just comparing camit to current jab production engines. The new one is a quantum leap away from the old one ( including a good likelihood it will have two carbs)

 

They are both approaching the same problems but from different directions. The only answer as to which is the "right" answer will come when lots of engines of both designs are in the field and being subjected to the rigours of use.

 

I don't know how many engines camit have sold though. I get the impression from Ian it is not very many. Jab claim a couple of hundred in the field I think.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

No, that wasn't humour, just a gentle poke about hypocrisy.

So you were just having a Jab eh?

 

 

[gandalph]

So you were just having a Jab eh?

Sort of a jabatabbott and a digatdazza.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Off thread but the J160 for sale on the RAA site from Vic looks awesome with the graphics down the fuselage sides. The one registered 24- 5547

 

 

[gandalph]

Turbopop, you labelled my post #17 as optimistic. I wonder, which did you find optimistic?

 

 

[hyundai]

A colleague with much more expertise and experience in these things than me has suggested that the cylinders appear to be a pressure casting and possibly/probably a derivative of 242 alloy and so good for about 250C. An improvement on the current alloy's temperature handling capability. He expressed some concern about the finning arrangement and suggested that it is likely to put the exhaust valve temp up, unless they've gone for high-conductivity valve seats. The higher temp is going to put the oil temp way up, in the rocker boxes; so they will need to increase the oil flow greatly . He was not very optimistic about this development saying that it will simply move the failure points rather than eliminating them.

I just came back from jabiru talking to Stiffy and i can tell you they are developing the new engine testing testing and they will find all the problems. I am sure when it goes to market it will be right. As the person who made the LCHeads who just tested for a few hours and sold to the unsuspecting public yes I bought them a big list of problems they should have tested for 2-500 hours not just 6 hours and say yes temps 180Deg on the market sold.

 

 

[jetjr]

Jabiru too need to extend testing systems and subsequent quality control.

 

Plenty have suggested improvements to Rod over the years including close partners. He isnt very receptive to others ideas.

 

Some of the previous improvements Jabiru have released are reactionary and largely untested i suggest. Sometimes let down by sub standard parts and materials down the track.

 

Examples might be economy carb jetting, new throughbolt nuts, new longer throughbolts, now we have larger throughbolts AND studs, washers and nuts, various flywheel attachment versions and perhaps the whole hydraulic lifter development saga, valve issues, gudgeon circlips, mag rotors and the list goes on.

 

I am a big supporter of Jabiru however experience shows they are prone to making changes on the run and this doesnt result in solid improvements. Its not always the upgraded part which gives the problem.

 

Right now they are under enormous pressure due to CASA limitations and Ive frequently said this may not be the right environment for development of sound upgrades. Especially where slow and expensive testing is required. They arent BRP or Lycoming selling thousands per year and reality is funds are no doubt limited.

 

Its good they are moving ahead and bringing new ideas to the market, these new cylinder/throughbolt arrangement look good, but its some big changes effecting lots of other systems. It will need some serious testing.

 

 

[dazza 38]

It is a big step forward IMO Jabiru going with Nikasil bores, motorcycles have been using this for years.