Jabiru 2210 engine

[facthunter]

The development of aluminium went from cast iron sleeves to chrome to Nikasil. Universal on two strokes (practically) where the edge loading around the exhaust port is severe, and it has worked for years now. Not likely to present a problem if engineered correctly in this situation It's deeply spigotted into the head which means it needs to transfer heat through that join. It still has a head to barrell seal to worry about.. Having heads removable makes maintenance easier, but since the studs go all the way through, it's going to relax the crankcase join if heads are removed, as I see it.

 

It's a good move permitting closer running fits with the piston and hence better sealing of rings and the Al has better conductivity of heat than the steel. Piston temps should be lower. There will be no distortion of the base flange either. Nev

 

 

[bexrbetter]

and they will find all the problems.

The fact is this is the 5th iteration because the first 4 had issues over a 20 year period.

 

I hope they succeed but that would require an obvious change of the internal culture that has failed them for the previous iterations, we don't know if that's the case or not.

 

Nikasil, like Bobcat, is a brand name not a process (semantics) and is late 60's used first by Porsche in their racing cars - that's piston engines, NSU were experimenting with it for their rotary engines a bit earlier. There are others other than Nikasil and all have patents for different processes and alloying materials.

 

By the way, BMW were having Nikasil lining issues in some countries with high sulfur fuels until quite recently.

 

Chromed liners have been around for a surprisingly long time, I have never traced it's history but I know of pre-War examples.

 

It still has a head to barrell seal to worry about..

Yup, makes their extra finning on the barrels a bit superfluous really. It's indeed possible that the barrel will run too cool and the constant shifting at the joint with the head expanding/contracting at a different rate may well see new sealing issues arise.

 

 

[Guest john]

Whatever additional materials are added to the internal walls of cylinders during the manufacturing or reconditioning process, whether they are for aviation or automotive purposes, the long & the short of it without going into the technacalities, (which the majority of forum members would not comprehend if speaking technically) these added materials usually fail & leave destructive particles to circulate throughout the engine lubrication system & eventually shorten the TBO life of the engine.

 

 

[hyundai]

I read what you say John about Nikasil we have to look at other engines like Rotax they reach TBO. I was talking to Stiffy he explained that it is very hard and expensive

 

to manufacture a barrel and head in one and then Nicasil it. I wonder what cont and lycom do with there all in one cylinders.

 

 

[facthunter]

Nikasil tm, Is widely used. The material is fused into the aluminium surface. Two strokes use it universally almost Chain saws race bikes etc. if it is the right quality, I wouldn't see a problem likely in the normal lifetime of a component.. The earlier hard chrome did flake eventually, usually near the exhaust port where it is very highly loaded..

 

Where used,the iron sleeve distorts and the connection (Heat path) between the two metals has always been a problem. The wall thickness has to be more with a pressed in sleeve. There's no room with the Jab bore centres for anything much thicker.

 

The extended spigot at the top has me concerned. It will still seal on the end. If it was interference fitted on the plain part there would be problems servicing it and likely distortion as well..

 

The one piece cylinder assemblies in the Cont Lyc "flat"motors are"shrink threaded" as are most radials and could be pretty much considered a permanent assembly. Steel cylinders and cast or forged heads. The shrink band is a common failure point on P&W 1830 motors with high hours. (and others).

 

The steel cylinders are sometimes Nitrided for a harder wearing surface. This is not a coating. it's a bit like case hardening Which uses CARBON to alloy with the steel at the surface except Nitrogenis used instead. This gives less distortion and saves machining costs, but is NOT suitable for ball or roller races. Many aero crankshafts are nitrided as are diesels mostly. Nev

 

 

[JoeDallas]

From the Jabiru factory today, some information regarding a new engine. Looks interesting, not only new cast cylinders/heads but it looks like the induction is very different too.As we keep saying the Research and Development never stops here at Jabiru. For the last 4 years the Jabiru engineers have been working on the development of the “2210” engine. It’s exciting news!!! There is still work to be done but we are edging closer to the possible launch of this new engine. We are planning to initially release it as an experimental engine. Eventually there will also be a six cylinder released as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

We have now accumulated just over 800 hours in test time and it is performing well. The engine has non corrosive aluminium cylinders with nickel and silicon carbide bores. These cylinders have three times the thermal conductivity of steel and the bores have very low friction and high wear resistance. The cast cylinders are more robust than the steel cylinders we currently use. We will keep you updated on the progress......... in the meantime we have attached some pictures for you of the “2210”

 

 

 

[ATTACH=full]35009[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]35010[/ATTACH]

Does any know if these parts will fit the current engines and if they think they will be available this year.

 

I am building a RV12 and will need a engine by the end of this year and the 3310 looks promising.

 

I already have the firewall forward kit for the 3300 and on hold waiting for Jabiru to get it in gear.

 

( Eventually )

 

Wishful thinking.

 

Joe D

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Does any know if these parts will fit the current engines and if they think they will be available this year.

Hi Joe, terribly sorry for being helpful again, but I would suggest you shoot "Oscar", I mean shoot a PM to him (sorry Freudian slip), a member here who is generally more up to date with current Jabiru and CaMit engine happenings than most.

 

 

[jetjr]

Joe, id put a Camit engine on you review list,

 

Camit Aero Engines produce engines for Jabiru and they now sell an engine of their own.

 

 

[JoeDallas]

I sent a email to Camit

 

They have no distributor in the USA at this time.

 

They said they should have one by Oshkosh.

 

They don't have a roller cam or notches in there pistons for valve relief or Nikasil Cylinders.

 

Isn't the same as the old 3300 Jab

 

Or am missing something.

 

Getting info on these Engines is like pulling teeth

 

I would really like more info on the 2210 and 3310 and the Camit Engines.

 

Thanks

 

Joe D

 

 

[facthunter]

I would hold my horses for a while Joe. Nev

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

They don't have a roller cam or notches in there pistons for valve relief or Nikasil Cylinders................. Getting info on these Engines is like pulling teeth. I would really like more info on the 2210 and 3310 and the Camit Engines.

Joe the CAMit engine is solid lifter also like the earlier Jabs - requires occasional valve clearance adjustment but simpler, less problems and about 5hp more power which is nice. I understand a lot of the Jab engine issues started after adding hydraulic lifters to an engine that wasn't originally designed for them. Nikasil etc is nice but the cylinders & bores themselves don't appear to be a major weak point at the moment that I am aware.

 

As Bex said ask Oscar, he is the guru here on CAMit. Hey maybe you should come over you and check them both out, parts of Queensland are very similar to Florida.

 

 

[jetjr]

You could search and learn a lot here

 

 

[jetboy]

Joe, the 2210 parts will not be useable on 2200 or 3300 engines. Because the cylinder and head fastening methods are different for starters.

 

Its unclear whether Jabiru will resume 2200 / 3300 production or introduce the -10 variants instead.

 

The other derivatives are Camit, ULPower and D-motor. Each has significant differences, like you say getting that information is hard. Watching their websites over a period of time does help form a picture of where theyre at. Although it might be nice to have clearance cutouts in the Camit pistons I gather its not as essential compared to the scenario that exists with Jabiru hydraulic lifters pumping up. With solid lifter engines if a valve sticks it often returns on its own without damage however the pushrod can fall off the rocker meaning loss of power to that cylinder until corrected. Piston cutouts would make no difference in this case and maybe the reason they are not introduced on Camit engines. Its not clear if the cutouts have adverse effects on detonation etc. also.

 

 

[gandalph]

Hi Joe and welcome to the site.

 

As Bex and Gnarly have said, a bloke here known as Oscar does seem to have very good information on the CAMit engine and and developments, and while I wouldn't want to downplay Oscar's role as CAMit Guru I would suggest that you could also write or email Ian Bent at CAMit with any particular questions you have about his engines and his philosophy behind the changes and improvements he's developed. He is a very approachable bloke and is very generous with his time and information. I know he's super busy at present developing and testing some very interesting improvements but I'm sure he would find time to give you straight answers to any sensible questions you might have.

 

I have also heard on the grapevine that Oscar is developing some interesting cooling mods but I'm not sure if they're specific to his model Jab or can be adapted for other Jabs. You'd need to chat with him about those

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

........ Nikasil etc is nice but the cylinders & bores themselves don't appear to be a major weak point at the moment that I am aware........

Well that s not the case!

 

If you use your engine very regularly then the cylinders wont be an issue...if you leave it longer than a week between uses then the manual says you must inhibit the engine because the bores will corrode. The manual is correct and I know that because I'm on my second set of barrels and pistons in my J3300 due to corrosion...... A rebuild which included changing all the internal Studs and through bolts (for a solid lifter engine that from what I know doesn't really need them changed ) cost close to 90% of the cost of a new engine...so not exactly a minor issue!!!

 

Andy

 

 

[gandalph]

Andy, Have you thought of using dehydrator plugs in the engine. I had a set made up to use on my J2200 while it's stored. They seem to be working as designed but time (and a borescope) will tell.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

To be honest I try very hard to fly weekly.... when I moved from SA to NSW in 2009 there was 2 years with significant flooding which meant that there were times when I might have gone 6 weeks between starts....The manual covered it, I just ignored it as an issue to my great financial disadvantage.... coming from SA to northern NSW I went from humidity = low to humidity = high and didn't cope well with the change or understand the ipact.

 

Being aware of the issue now I hope to not have a repeat...I also add a bit of upper cylinder lubricant to the avgas so the walls of the cylinder aren't dry....all on advice of my L4

 

Andy

 

 

[JoeDallas]

Well that s not the case!If you use your engine very regularly then the cylinders wont be an issue...if you leave it longer than a week between uses then the manual says you must inhibit the engine because the bores will corrode. The manual is correct and I know that because I'm on my second set of barrels and pistons in my J3300 due to corrosion...... A rebuild which included changing all the internal Studs and through bolts (for a solid lifter engine that from what I know doesn't really need them changed ) cost close to 90% of the cost of a new engine...so not exactly a minor issue!!!

 

Andy

[JoeDallas]

Thanks All for your info

 

It seems that if I go with a Jabiru or CAMit it will be some time before I will be able to buy a engine.

 

The cylinder corrosion is a big issue to me, if I can't make it to the airport for some reason I don't want to be worrying about the cylinders rusting.

 

Taking time to prep the engine every time I leave the airport, in case I can't get back within a week or two isn't a solution I can live with.

 

If the new Jabiru parts don't interchange with the 2200 and 3300 engines, why would anyone buy these if they may be replaced with the 2210 and 3310 Engines.

 

It seems to me that Jabiru needs to put there effort in high gear a get more test engines in some aircraft.

 

Maybe the lack of information from Jabiru is so they can keep selling the old engines until they get their act together

 

My View

 

I prefer to use a Jabiru 3310 in my RV12, if it is available by the end of this year.

 

Again

 

Thanks all for your comments

 

Joe D

 

 

[bexrbetter]

If the new Jabiru parts don't interchange with the 2200 and 3300 engines, why would anyone buy these if they may be replaced with the 2210 and 3310 Engines.

Every car manufacturer for instance goes through this quandary every time they update a model - tell people about it so they don't go to the opposition, but risk not selling your soon to be outdated current model as well. Usually the only option is to sell the end of the run off cheaply.

 

 

[Geoff13]

You could look at the Camit barrel oiling systew. Simple, effective and cheap. Camit do have some great ideas.

 

 

[gandalph]

Thanks All for your infoIt seems that if I go with a Jabiru or CAMit it will be some time before I will be able to buy a engine.

 

The cylinder corrosion is a big issue to me, if I can't make it to the airport for some reason I don't want to be worrying about the cylinders rusting.

 

Again

 

Thanks all for your comments

 

Joe D

Joe,

 

I don't understand your comment that it will be some time before you'll be able to buy a Jab or CAMit engine. You can place your order for a CAMit 3300 engine at 8:30 am Monday morning, and if Ian Bent doesn't have one on the shelf I woud bet he'll have one built and dyno tested by the end of the week. Have you actually spoken to CAMit or just looked over their web site? As I said in an earlier post, give him a call or email him. Get his view on when you can get an engine.

 

I don't know if or when there will be a Jabiru 3310 engine. You'd need to talk to Jabiru and see what they can tell you about that.

 

Cylinder corrosion can be a problem in any engine. You'll need to take appropriate preventative action no matter what engine you use.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Joe,I don't understand your comment that it will be some time before you'll be able to buy a Jab or CAMit engine.

In reference to waiting for the newer model "Jabiru 3310" engine to be released.

 

 

[JoeDallas]

Joe,I don't understand your comment that it will be some time before you'll be able to buy a Jab or CAMit engine. You can place your order for a CAMit 3300 engine at 8:30 am Monday morning, and if Ian Bent doesn't have one on the shelf I woud bet he'll have one built and dyno tested by the end of the week. Have you actually spoken to CAMit or just looked over their web site? As I said in an earlier post, give him a call or email him. Get his view on when you can get an engine.

 

I don't know if or when there will be a Jabiru 3310 engine. You'd need to talk to Jabiru and see what they can tell you about that.

 

Cylinder corrosion can be a problem in any engine. You'll need to take appropriate preventative action no matter what engine you use.

I sent a email to Camit and they said that they should have a dealer in the US by Oshkosh.

 

The 3300 engine that Jabiru sells is made by Camit ( or some of the parts are made by Camit )

 

I am still confused by this arrangement. ( Chicken or Egg )

 

As I sated earlier ( They don't have a roller cam or notches in there pistons for valve relief or Nikasil Cylinders ) and ( The cylinder corrosion is a big issue to me, if I can't make it to the airport for some reason I don't want to be worrying about the cylinders rusting. )

 

I would like to talk to some from Camit to see how they address these Items.

 

And what makes there engine any better than the Jabiru 3300 and the jab 3310 If it ever gets

 

built.

 

If some form Camit wants to contact me they have my Email address that I sent them last week

 

I will send it again today

 

Thanks Again

 

Joe D

 

 

[grindio]

I'm not to sold on nikasil, it's true they solve the corrosion problem, but read this:

 

http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/ECI-Cylinder-AD-The-More-You-Look-the-Worse-It-Is-220510-1.html

 

There must be a reason why millennium's cylinders are preferred instead of Eci's nikasil.