Norm Sanders Sport Pilot Letter

[turboplanner]

I couldn't think why any pilot would be concerned about a ramp check, given that he/she would normally be well equipped and planned for a long flight.

 

On the other hand I would be more nervous about an aircraft check because there is always something coming loose or a difference of opinion on what the regulation intended the specification to be.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

And that is the fear, someone from CASA doesn't like the look of your prop and decides to ground your aircraft, because its better to be safe than sorry.

 

 

[facthunter]

How many people in CASA would have their head around the way this movement operates? Flying an RAAus plane would be a good start, and having built a few would be an even better situation. Nev

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

How many people in CASA would have their head around the way this movement operates? Flying an RAAus plane would be a good start, and having built a few would be an even better situation. Nev

Yeah I wonder are the ramp-checkers pilots themselves? Would be odd getting grilled on the highway by a cop who couldn't drive. It would seem reasonable to ask for their ID, CASA credentials and certificate or licence up front.

 

 

[facthunter]

Most of the usual scrutineers who check you motorbike or race car, couldn't change a spark plug.. Give them a title and they go power mad. Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

I have beenramp checked at a fly in. No problems and done very quickly and cheerfully.

 

While I was at a Natfly, the first at temora I think, I was talking to a GA pilot and he was trying to get to his plane, without attracting the attention of any CASA people. He didn't have any charts, having come from South Aus. and going back, using only a portable GPS. He would have had a hard time convincing CASA he was being responsible, because he didn't convince me.

 

 

[Yenn]

I thought that the chainsaw episode had been consigned to history. I was ass up head down that day, didn't know what the opposition were doing.

 

 

[kaz3g]

I have beenramp checked at a fly in. No problems and done very quickly and cheerfully.

Hi Yenn

 

Just curious. Did the person conducting the ramp check:

 

Identify themself as an investigator;

 

Identify themself as an authorised person;

 

Wear or produce an ID card;

 

Explain their powers in relation to conducting the check;

 

Seek your consent to enter or search your aircraft; or

 

Check the aircraft physically?

 

Kaz

 

 

[rankamateur]

I thought that the chainsaw episode had been consigned to history. I was ass up head down that day, didn't know what the opposition were doing.

Don't worry Yenn, you were up against the pros and performed admirably. I was impressed enough to still remember, one hell of a good fly-in that one.

 

 

[cscotthendry]

What worries me about the ramp checks is interpretation of the rules. Ask any three aviators about a given set of the aviation rules and you'll get six different opinions. Witness the current debate about whether you need to have an RA Aus pilot certificate to fly an RAA registered plane, even if you hold a PPL.. From time to time I've had a read through the rules and regulations, and apart from being mind bogglingly complex, if you study them long enough you can come to quite a number of interpretations on numerous issues.

 

I believe that the people who have been ramp checked have rarely if ever been penalised, but there's always the first time.

 

Hands up all those who could confidently say they comprehensively know the aviation rules and regs and could predict how CASA might interpret any given rule at any given time.

 

So let's say, the CASA person who's doing your ramp check has just been given a real earful of abuse by the three pilots they checked just before you. Do you think they're going to be all sweetness and light when they get to you? It's a lottery and I'd rather not buy a ticket.

 

 

[Akromaster]

CASA Ramp checks guide:

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/lib100209/ramp-checks-ga.pdf

 

Seems straight forward enough, unless say you want to check if your EFB use is compliant - I tried to follow it and my head was hurting after a few minutes.

 

 

[poteroo]

I thought that editor and Raa Aus and others said there were'nt any ramp checks on the day, who is correct and is this an anti CASA rant. What are the facts before emotions run rampant.

I agree. I'd expect to see a letter of retraction from one party on this matter.

 

A ramp check is done for education - not for punitive purposes. All pilots, (GA or RAAus), need to toughen up and stop acting like a bunch of wooses over ramp checks. If you half tried to follow the sensible requirements then there would be no need for ramp checks in the first place. Many of you seem to blame it all on the 'cowboy' element. But, cowboys, in the real sense of this pilot description, are a self-eliminating group. The gene pool is shrinking. The problem is with those of you who don't believe the rules apply to you, or that you are smarter than the average pilot, or both.

 

If CASA don't cease doing them in the future, then you can probably expect to see RAAus Ops doing it instead. And you might not be as happy if that occurs because you'll, in fact, be paying for it.

 

Stop the whingeing!

 

 

[KRviator]

So what is the problem. Is Norm afraid that he will be ramp cheked and will fail?

I'd suggest that's a big part of it. Just because you're compliant -and you know you're compliant, doesn't mean CAsA does, and there have been many instances of CAsA officials misusing their power "just because" and once that has occurred, you've got a better chance of getting your missus to admit she was wrong than getting the CAsA decision overturned.If a CAsA official asks to inspect your aircraft knowing full well they don't have the authority to do so unless you consent that speaks volumes to me. I will gladly produce the required documentation for their inspection, but they do not have the right to go on a fishing expedition - and that many officials seem to try it on is enough to upset a lot of people.

 

I couldn't think why any pilot would be concerned about a ramp check, given that he/she would normally be well equipped and planned for a long flight.

I'd encourage you to Google the CASA vs Richard Rudd, or CASA vs John Quadrio cases. Proven wrong, and in Rudd's case, apparent perjury, despite nothing wrong. As above, just because you are doing nothing wrong doesn't mean CAsA thinks the same.

 

If CASA don't cease doing them in the future, then you can probably expect to see RAAus Ops doing it instead. And you might not be as happy if that occurs because you'll, in fact, be paying for it.

I'd be happy for RAAus to ramp me. I'd welcome it. At least they'd have a bit of an idea about just WTF they were talking about. Though I'm still expecting a few raised eyebrows when I turn up to NatFly in the RV next year. :P

[turboplanner]

I'd encourage you to Google the CASA vs Richard Rudd, or CASA vs John Quadrio cases. Proven wrong, and in Rudd's case, apparent perjury, despite nothing wrong. As above, just because you are doing nothing wrong doesn't mean CAsA thinks the same.

I haven't checked the Rudd case, but from my memory an Administrative Tribunal upheld the CASA Quadrio decision, and he actually admitted it on Prune.

 

No one seems to be too keen to confirm on this occasion whether there were any ramp checks at this event; might spoil some great tales.

 

 

[aro]

I couldn't think why any pilot would be concerned about a ramp check, given that he/she would normally be well equipped and planned for a long flight.On the other hand I would be more nervous about an aircraft check because there is always something coming loose or a difference of opinion on what the regulation intended the specification to be.

I suspect most private flights are deficient in some area. For example, how many of us always weigh their passengers? We are required to use actual weight for W&B calculations, how do you do that if you haven't weighed the passenger? I don't think that "He didn't look too heavy" is a valid method of weighing. Also, how many could answer how they determined the CG would be within range before flight? As far as I know you need to show either calculations or a system of loading.

 

There was an interesting article on Avweb about ramp checks in the USA, in particular whether you have to answer questions about your previous flight: http://www.avweb.com/news/features/Legal-Issues-for-Pilots-221888-1.html

 

"The moment an inspector asks you about something that happened in the past it’s no longer just a ramp check, it’s an investigation." ... "You do not have to answer investigation questions."

 

I think the idea is that you are not required to provide information that could be used as evidence against you, if they decide to prosecute you for something. I wonder whether the same principle applies in Australia? It is interesting to contrast this with the information CASA claim you are required to provide. I'm not sure what CASA's reaction would be if you declined to tell them where you flew from without legal representation...

 

If you are pulled over in a car by the police they typically do not ask you where you came from, what time you left and the maximum speed you travelled at.

 

 

[KRviator]

I haven't checked the Rudd case, but from my memory an Administrative Tribunal upheld the CASA Quadrio decision, and he actually admitted it on Prune.

Everything I've read thus far about the JQ case was that nothing was ever proven - and I've yet to hear him admit to anything worth of a licence cancellation. The AAT upheld CAsA's decision to cancel his licence, but the evidence was inadequate for a criminal conviction - or even a court case in an attempt to gain a conviction, the DPP dropped all charges against him. JQ was not proven guilty of any offence and indeed even showed the video wasn't filmed on one of his flights, so CAsA simply changed the allegations to suit.This case, coupled with Rudd's Wilga incident, show just what to expect from some CAsA officials...

 

 

[turboplanner]

Are you suggesting he got his licence back?

 

 

[KRviator]

Not at all. Last I heard he was still licence-less, and probably will be for life. What I meant was that JQ had not admitted to anything that would be worthy of a cancellation. No "Yep, that was me hot-dogging in a Robby" or "Looks good on youtube, dunnit?". He had always maintained his innocence, I have never read of him confessing to anything that would be grounds to cancel his licence.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

The "boys" we're in attendance at Loxton this weekend. They never did a ramp check.

 

I volunteered to show them my recent material from a trip from Qld to Loxton to see if I was legal.

 

All ok except that I had an out of date wac map. I have OZrunnways and questioned why I should have to pay for a later map. The reply was that if I carry a map it has to be current! And is ILLEGAL to carry an out of date map.

 

Apparently you can subscribe to get updates free and mark in the alterations, I never knew this, so will investigate.

 

The summary of this is that if I didnt carry a map, I would be legal with only my efb. A back up method is obviously good piloting, so the current maps would be sufficient.

 

They had a few giveaways, one was a credit card sized info on what you need for a ramp check which I found would be helpful for reminders before a trip.

 

Basically an information presence.

 

PHIL

 

 

[SDQDI]

I carry an out of date VNC and WAC just incase the iPad dies. I also of course have my phone and gps but I have always liked the idea of a paper copy as backup. If it's illegal to be carrying out of date maps I won't be buying new ones if I'm legal with the iPad which just means I won't have a paper backup which seems sort of silly to me, but who am I to question theses in higher places.

 

 

[skeptic36]

If you are pulled over in a car by the police they typically do not ask you where you came from, what time you left and the maximum speed you travelled at.

But if you are in a truck..............

 

 

[aro]

But if you are in a truck..............

Not really different I suspect... as with an aircraft, there is certain documentation you are required to keep and police can ask you for that. They can use information in that to prosecute you. You don't necessarily have to answer general questions arising from that e.g. "Your logbook shows that you left X 3 hours ago. That is over 270km from here - you could not have travelled that distance without exceeding the speed limit at some point. What speed did you travel at through the towns enroute?"

 

 

[frank marriott]

The "boys" we're in attendance at Loxton this weekend. They never did a ramp check.I volunteered to show them my recent material from a trip from Qld to Loxton to see if I was legal.

All ok except that I had an out of date wac map. I have OZrunnways and questioned why I should have to pay for a later map. The reply was that if I carry a map it has to be current! And is ILLEGAL to carry an out of date map.

 

Apparently you can subscribe to get updates free and mark in the alterations, I never knew this, so will investigate.

 

The summary of this is that if I didnt carry a map, I would be legal with only my efb. A back up method is obviously good piloting, so the current maps would be sufficient.

 

They had a few giveaways, one was a credit card sized info on what you need for a ramp check which I found would be helpful for reminders before a trip.

 

Basically an information presence.

 

PHIL

The other option is you can print a paper copy of your route off the iPad and then you would have a paper copy of the current map as back up. Not so easy when planning a route whilst away from home.

 

 

[ev17ifly2]

Sorry, I can't see what all the fuss is about. There aren't many recreational or sporting persists where you don,t get "ramp checked" these days. Take boating for instance, many a time I have been ramp (launching) checked by water police - life vests, epirb, flares, radio etc. No big deal if you are doing the right and safe thing. Recreational aviation is no different

 

 

[AVOCET]

Found a bloke looking at athe Avocet on sunday morning

 

Ide just spent the last 1/2 hr taking off the turret cowels for a pre flight.

 

He came over after and introduced himself and gave me his card and said any time you need to talk about any thing aviation to give him a ring .

 

I found him to be cheerfull , helpfull , and appreciated my contribution to aviation , can happen every time i land , if YAM

 

I asked him about my i phone as a back up to pocket fms for the skyview , his answer was i need to upgrade to an i pad ,

 

May as well keep the map sub up , it would be cheeper , just take the maps you need for that flight .

 

MIKE