Norm Sanders Sport Pilot Letter

[aro]

The reply was that if I carry a map it has to be current! And is ILLEGAL to carry an out of date map.

I think they are making stuff up. I can't see any regulation that forbids carrying an out of date map. You are required to carry the latest editions of maps, but as long as you have them there is nothing stopping you from also carring an out of date map.

 

Your post prompted me to look up the regulations. The wording is interesting, it suggests that you are required to carry ALL the maps and charts applicable to the route, not just what is required for navigation. So for a flight out of e.g. Moorabbin you probably need PCA, WAC, VNC, VTC, TAC and ERC-L to be strictly legal.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...Apparently you can subscribe to get updates free and mark in the alterations, I never knew this, so will investigate...PHIL

Interesting, Phil. In what form are these updates supplied?

I am slightly cynical about AirServices' update system. Their charts invite pilots to advise of mistakes or out of date info. Three times I have done this, but the error has never been corrected.

 

 

[Yenn]

Years ago we had to update WAC charts and a load of other paperwork as a matter of course, but we got most of the paperwork free from DCA

 

 

[AVOCET]

Years ago we had to update WAC charts and a load of other paperwork as a matter of course, but we got most of the paperwork free from DCA

FREE , now thats a safty incentive !!

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Years ago we had to update WAC charts and a load of other paperwork as a matter of course, but we got most of the paperwork free from DCA

Lifetime ago, pre Frazer if i remember right.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Not at all. Last I heard he was still licence-less, and probably will be for life. What I meant was that JQ had not admitted to anything that would be worthy of a cancellation. No "Yep, that was me hot-dogging in a Robby" or "Looks good on youtube, dunnit?". He had always maintained his innocence, I have never read of him confessing to anything that would be grounds to cancel his licence.

You should read through the prune file; this is one of his quotes, (not necessarily the clearest, haven't got time to trawl back through the years) - "we also brought up the fact that the low flying law specifically states it applies over terrain. The judge decided that in this instance terrain actually included water."

 

 

 

 

[dazza 38]

It's best to update WAC maps from time to time as towns, cities and mountains move all the time.

 

 

[turboplanner]

It's best to update WAC maps from time to time as towns, cities and mountains move all the time.

It's actually so changes don't kill you - like a high tension cable strung across a valley.

They did that in Grand Canyon in the 60's, and a USAF fighter pilot experiencing the exhilaration of flying below the rim slammed into it and was killed.

 

 

[kaz3g]

I think they are making stuff up. I can't see any regulation that forbids carrying an out of date map. You are required to carry the latest editions of maps, but as long as you have them there is nothing stopping you from also carring an out of date map.Your post prompted me to look up the regulations. The wording is interesting, it suggests that you are required to carry ALL the maps and charts applicable to the route, not just what is required for navigation. So for a flight out of e.g. Moorabbin you probably need PCA, WAC, VNC, VTC, TAC and ERC-L to be strictly legal.

I agree, Aro but I'd also caution that there are "investigators" appointed under the Act who have broad powers to investigate matters under the Act, and also "authorised persons" appointed under the CAR who have powers in relation to certain matters under the regs specified in their appointment document.

 

It is an offence to refuse to answer an investigator's questions even if it might self-incriminate, though a response to such a question can't be led in evidence. Obviously, it can be used to point the investigator to documentary or physical evidence adverse to the person questioned.

 

Like everything about our air legislation, it is difficult to follow the relevant provisions and raises a number of concerns, especially around our rights as citizens in an increasingly regulated society.

 

Kaz

 

 

[turboplanner]

For example, how many of us always weigh their passengers? We are required to use actual weight for W&B calculations, how do you do that if you haven't weighed the passenger? I don't think that "He didn't look too heavy" is a valid method of weighing. Also, how many could answer how they determined the CG would be within range before flight? As far as I know you need to show either calculations or a system of loading.

The answer should be everyone, since it's a mandatory Performance and Operations requirement.

 

I've never flown out of a facility that didn't have a set of scales - and even if you have an isolated hangar, it's hardly an imposition - see a current ebay cost below.

 

We don't carry enough pax to be able to use standard weights, itself a very controversial subject at the moment.

 

If you have a crash, and it's caused by dynamic overload you better hope you weighed everyone; it's your responsibility to stay withing weight.

 

Pax weight has a cumulative effect on weight and balance, either for good or bad, depending on the aircraft design, so if you get the pax weight wrong, your balance calculations have to be wrong.

 

A poster on this site told us how, in a Morgan, he had moved the position of his 15 kg tool box, and on takeoff the aircraft had got out of control. He had to fight to get back down, and that was a good lesson for all of us as an example of the weight margins we have to think of.

 

It's also mandatory to do a balance calculation before each flight, so yes, you need to be able to show how you arrived at the decision to commit to flight.

 

WDbathroom scales.pdf

 

WDbathroom scales.pdf

 

WDbathroom scales.pdf

[dazza 38]

It's actually so changes don't kill you - like a high tension cable strung across a valley.They did that in Grand Canyon in the 60's, and a USAF fighter pilot experiencing the exhilaration of flying below the rim slammed into it and was killed.

There is a very small chance of that happening.

 

 

[aro]

It is an offence to refuse to answer an investigator's questions even if it might self-incriminate, though a response to such a question can't be led in evidence. Obviously, it can be used to point the investigator to documentary or physical evidence adverse to the person questioned.

Interesting... so if during a ramp check you admit to eg. flying overweight and without the required fuel reserves, CASA have to find independent evidence of that? Or can they use your answers as evidence of wrongdoing?

 

 

[kaz3g]

The "chance" increases exponentially the lower you fly. Put another way, the risk increases the more rules you break.

 

Thirty-five years ago I came close to slicing an RF5 on HT lines spanning Lake Eildon after I stupidly decided I would descend to say "hello" to a couple of guys flying tiny ultralights on floats way below.

 

That was my free lesson...haven't needed another one it was THAT good.

 

Kaz

 

 

[aro]

It's actually so changes don't kill you - like a high tension cable strung across a valley.

I can't find any examples where powerlines show height AGL on a map. Can you give an example? I know someone hit a powerline across the valley at Eildon, but I don't see any information in the WAC that suggests that powerline is more of a danger to aircraft than any other.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Interesting... so if during a ramp check you admit to eg. flying overweight and without the required fuel reserves, CASA have to find independent evidence of that? Or can they use your answers as evidence of wrongdoing?

The investigator will then have cause to check your reserves and weigh your load and do a thousand other things to stitch you right up which, if you have done those things you no doubt deserve. These things can take days to complete and an investigator can prohibit an aircraft being moved.

 

If the investigator asks you what your planned reserve was and finds you have misled him/her you will be in more doodoo.

 

"Investigators" are dealt with in Part IIIA of the Act. Note that "premises" is given a very wide meaning in section 3.

 

The CAR Reg 6 appoints "authorised persons" and Reg 6A sets out what regs they can be appointed to act under. Some of these regs are now dealt with in the CASR of course.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Camel]

If you use ozrunways and carry out of date maps just write on them " not for operational purposes " and I'm sure that is quite alright.

 

 

[aro]

The investigator will then have cause to check your reserves and weigh your load and do a thousand other things to stitch you right up which, if you have done those things you no doubt deserve....

If the investigator asks you what your planned reserve was and finds you have misled him/her you will be in more doodoo.

They can't weigh the fuel you burned to get there. It may be hard to prove that you flew direct rather than stopping on the way without relying on what you tell the investigator. Regardless of how much you deserve it, I'm just wondering whether there is any protection against self incrimination in Australia. Are you permitted to get legal advice before answering questions?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Your fuel burn calculation, and flight plan are required to be done before takeoff and these take into account climb, cruise and descent, and you'll have the forecast wind the calcs were based on, and you'll have any diversions you made during the flight, so even if he asks you for the details and cross checks them, the two figures should be very close. The CASA guy will be smart enough to look at your logs and cut you slack on a difficult flight. In an emergency mid-air, anywhere on the trip one of the flight centre's first questions will be what is your fuel endurance, so they can give you alternative routes etc to get you out of trouble. If you do the calcs and mark the WAC, even if the aircraft is bouncing around with solid cloud fifty feet above you, you'll be in a position to give a good response.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

If you read the regulations (regs 78,233,234), they are quite vaguely written as to what should be carried in relation to Nav logs, weather and weight and balance.

 

As an example, if I plan to fly 60 nm, land somewhere and return on the day I would check weight and balance but would not see the need to take the calculation with me. If I had carried the same load before and knew it was within limits I would not write it out every time I flew. If CASA wanted to prosecute me they would have to prove their case. My defence would be to recreate the calculation showing I was within limits. I would suggest they need reasonable suspicion of an offence (evidence) before they can start to impound or confiscate.

 

The regs say the pilot has to make a careful study of weather. They do not say you have to carry the weather report. Logging on the NAIPS is recorded and in my opinion is evidence of having studied weather. By all means carry it. But for my hypothetical trip I would not bother.

 

The reg in relation to nav log just says "The pilot in command of an aircraft shall keep a log of such navigational data as is required to enable him or her to determine the geographical position of the aircraft at any time while the aircraft is in flight." For my 60 nm flight which I have done dozens of times I would argue I could keep that log in my head and I have no doubt I could convince a magistrate that I would know where I was for every second of that flight.

 

In my opinion CASA's stated ramp check requirements to carry W & B, weather, Nav Log etc are just to make it easy for the inspector. I would say that apart from name and address you are not required to answer questions.

 

The regulations say what you have to do, they do not say how you have to do it. CASA have listed a way of showing evidence that you have followed the regs but in my opinion lack of evidence does not prove a crime.

 

If you get the impression the inspector is the officious prick that some people seem to have met then the mobile phone video is your friend. Be reasonable but do not incriminate yourself. If you think you have done nothing wrong, don't do their work for them. Oh, and if you do get that video, post it for all of us to see please!

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

It's best to update WAC maps from time to time as towns, cities and mountains move all the time.

Some towns disappear. I helped to dismantle Dalman in the 1960s. For half a century there has been nothing there, yet it is still shown on the charts. Aviators navigating via roads and villages would get a bum steer because the nearby village of Old Koreelah has never been shown.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

I think they are making stuff up. I can't see any regulation that forbids carrying an out of date map. You are required to carry the latest editions of maps, but as long as you have them there is nothing stopping you from also carring an out of date map.Your post prompted me to look up the regulations. The wording is interesting, it suggests that you are required to carry ALL the maps and charts applicable to the route, not just what is required for navigation. So for a flight out of e.g. Moorabbin you probably need PCA, WAC, VNC, VTC, TAC and ERC-L to be strictly legal.

I was only referring to sports aircraft.

 

VTC, etc are not required, but if you carry them they must be current.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

The "boys" we're in attendance at Loxton this weekend. They never did a ramp check.I volunteered to show them my recent material from a trip from Qld to Loxton to see if I was legal.

All ok except that I had an out of date wac map. I have OZrunnways and questioned why I should have to pay for a later map. The reply was that if I carry a map it has to be current! And is ILLEGAL to carry an out of date map.

 

Apparently you can subscribe to get updates free and mark in the alterations, I never knew this, so will investigate.

 

The summary of this is that if I didnt carry a map, I would be legal with only my efb. A back up method is obviously good piloting, so the current maps would be sufficient.

 

They had a few giveaways, one was a credit card sized info on what you need for a ramp check which I found would be helpful for reminders before a trip.

 

Basically an information presence.

 

PHIL

When police or CASA or anyone says something that doesn't sound quite right, like it being illegal to have an out of date map in your aircraft even though you have a current map on your ipad, always ask which regulation says it's illegal. That way you can check. It also puts them on the back foot.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Some towns disappear. I helped to dismantle Dalman in the 1960s. For half a century there has been nothing there, yet it is still shown on the charts. Aviators navigating via roads and villages would get a bum steer because the nearby village of Old Koreelah has never been shown.

So buying a new WAC is a waste of time and money as the latest ones haven't been updated.

 

 

[aro]

I was only referring to sports aircraft.VTC, etc are not required, but if you carry them they must be current.

Please supply a reference to a regulation that says that you cannot carry an expired chart.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

I havnt

 

Interesting, Phil. In what form are these updates supplied?I am slightly cynical about AirServices' update system. Their charts invite pilots to advise of mistakes or out of date info. Three times I have done this, but the error has never been corrected.

I havnt had a chance to ask Airservices yet. What I was told was, that they supply an update document with the changes, you then pencil them onto the WAC map, hence then judged as up to date.

 

WAC map only!

 

PHIL