Missing plane from Gympie yesterday

[Guest Andys@coffs]

......One issue we should be looking at concerns the ELT or PLB or what-ever. My old ELT was armed to activate in an impact. His beacon did not activate, so I wonder if we should be looking at recommending those that do, or a system of activation for those that need manual activation? Should we invest in something like "Spot" to trace our movements when flying? 

 

Sue

In my opinion absolutely we should look at SPoT or something similar....what would the cost to the Australian taxpayer for the SAR activity and what, by comparison would the cost have been if friends and family had been able to provide the last known fix that was between 1 and 3 minutes prior to the event......

 

SPoT uses satellite mobile phone technology so is, relatively speaking, expensive to run, (but so NOT relatively speaking when compared to the cost of the SAR!) but does provide an anywhere ability within greater Australia to regularly report locations. A $2 app like Followmee on iphone or ipad (the same one running your OzRunway or equivalent EFB software) would likely work just as well for pretty well anywhere on the east coast of Australia provided you have line of sight to a 3G or 4G ground station. so if above 1000ft and using Telstra as the carrier then I believe that if there was a SAR stage it would have all been over in a relatively short time because a 15km^2 search area is a whole lot better than a multi 1000nm^2 search area.

 

If you don't want to spend on SPoT (and I don't for the areas I fly) then invest in the $2 app and an appropriate Telstra plan (assuming you don't already have one....Not likely!) for your device that you probably already own for EFB purposes..... When I fly away on holiday with the wife, the extended family watch our progress on the Google mapping service that the App provider serves up, at any time given our 1min real time reporting schedule, they know to within 2nm where about in Australia we are.

 

In my EPIRB online registration with AMSA in the notes section I have identified my credentials to the Followmee website and the fact that I use it everytime for any longer distance flights. If a SAR is called for in my case I would hope that they in the review of beacon details see the alternate and check it out.

 

A recent flight from Grafton to Clifton over some lightly populated and less than ideal areas had coverage for 100% of the flight, and I wasn't at huge altitudes.....Just remember that problem areas on the ground occur because they are shielded by terrain from the base station cell...that doesn't happen once your in the air and up a bit.... in 2008 when I flew Tully FNQ pretty well direct to Adelaide over a lot of not much I had Telstra coverage for 95% of the flight, but was for the vast majority of the time higher than 7500ft.... Optus (Work phone) at the time worked for 5 minutes after takeoff and for 5 minutes before arriving ADL and never at any stage in between..... so you gets what you payfor

 

Andy

 

 

[Marty_d]

I would have thought that these days, given most people have a smart phone and most phones have GPS, the first thing SAR authorities would be doing is finding out the pilot's phone number and asking the telco for the most recent location. Or am I missing something?

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

It doesn't follow that because you have a smart phone that a record of its location automatically exists..... Within the Apple world a smart phone has the find my phone capability, but for it to work after the phone is perhaps dead due to crash you have to have had it (Find myphone capability) turned on, where its off by default, and you have to have had an iCloud account set up and signed into on the device, miss either of those and they have no way of knowing after the fact where you were.... BTW don't want to spend the $2 then Find my phone is a possibility as well but it doesn't list anything but the last position, and you can't from memory control how it derives location, GPS is power intensive in a phone so it trys a bunch of otherways before resorting to GPS, like looking for known WIFI AP's and or known 3G/4G cell towers it can see to make a rough guess of where you are......

 

In Followmee I have set the app to use only GPS location, the others imho make the outcome less useable for SAR activity. Even if I don't for what ever reason get out a recent location prior to a crash then those locations that have been fixed are plotted on the map so no need to guess track etc, just that alone reduces the size of the SAR area and is of benefit IMHO

 

 

[rankamateur]

Worth a new thread tho. I don't think this is the right one.

So tell us what you are thinking Andy! http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/effect-of-bank-angle-and-pitch-changes-on-stall-speed.134207/

 

 

[Marty_d]

It doesn't follow that because you have a smart phone that a record of its location automatically exists..... Within the Apple world a smart phone has the find my phone capability, but for it to work after the phone is perhaps dead due to crash you have to have had it (Find myphone capability) turned on, where its off by default, and you have to have had an iCloud account set up and signed into on the device, miss either of those and they have no way of knowing after the fact where you were.... BTW don't want to spend the $2 then Find my phone is a possibility as well but it doesn't list anything but the last position, and you can't from memory control how it derives location, GPS is power intensive in a phone so it trys a bunch of otherways before resorting to GPS, like looking for known WIFI AP's and or known 3G/4G cell towers it can see to make a rough guess of where you are......

In Followmee I have set the app to use only GPS location, the others imho make the outcome less useable for SAR activity. Even if I don't for what ever reason get out a recent location prior to a crash then those locations that have been fixed are plotted on the map so no need to guess track etc, just that alone reduces the size of the SAR area and is of benefit IMHO

I agree 100% that apps like the one you use are fantastic and unbelievably cheap. I was under the impression that telco's could track your mobile's location regardless though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_tracking

Not trying to talk anyone out of buying the app, I think they should. Just wondered whether SAR authorities already try tracking missing aircraft by the pilot's mobile.

 

 

[Teckair]

The probable reason why the search aircraft failed to find the crash site is because although the destination was north the aircraft tracked west north west to the crash site. On that day the wind was from the north at about 15 to 20 knots there were rain squalls and many clouds with towering vertical activity.

 

 

[Teckair]

This was the front when it reached Hervey Bay on Monday at about the same time the the wreckage was found.

 

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

AMSA is very well funded, and operates independantly. This search would have been high of course, but when there is no beacon activation it usually is. This is what AMSA does and it is what they are there for. On Sunday night I contacted them with the suggestion they have a look around the Einsvold area as Rob had returned from the Easter fly- in through that area, and had mentioned what a nice route it was. Monday they were overhead that area between there and Monto, until the farmer found the wreckage and then it was all called off.

 

I have had to deal with AMSA more than I would have liked this year so far, but in my opinion they are very good at what they do, and are also very nice to deal with....

 

 

[Happyflyer]

I personally do not think any postition follwoing device such as SPOT should be mandatory. We have too much regulation now and don't think my movements are anyones business other than mine. By all means use it if you want to. If you are in phone tower range and your phone is on, it can be traced to the general area. It does not need a smart phone to be properly set up to get this rough location. If the cost of not having SPOT is the occaisional search, I'm happy for my taxes to be used. It's good to keep in practice for a search anyway and may save them having to run a practice for training.

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

This is the official weather from the BOM about half an hour before take off. This is Saturday morning 9am 18 April 2015. I don't know if the weather in Hervey Bay on Monday 20th was a factor - certainly the deteriorating weather did make the search harder. The crash site was 39km from take off, approx 10-15mins flying time. There doesn't seem to be evidence of squalls, the highest gusts were in the afternoons; only one station does cloud observations - it was overcast at the time.

 

 

 

Gympie airport (take off point) and two others around the crash site:-

 

Gympie airport at 9am 22.2 degrees 82% Relative Humidity Winds W 2km/h Mean Sea Level Pressure 1022.4 h/Pa

 

Gayndah airport 9am 24.5 degrees 68% RH, Winds E 11km/hr MSLP 1021.6

 

Maryborough airport 9am 23.1 degrees 82% RH, Winds SE 11km/hr MSLP 1021.6 Cloud 7/8th

 

 

 

The direct track Gympie airport to Dululu Gliding Field is approx 320 degrees NW. The wreckage was found 6km NW of Woolooga which puts it close to track (if reports are correct). If there was a diversion to Eidsvold, Woolooga might have been the turning point.

 

 

 

Regardless, we have lost a remarkable man, and with him a wealth of knowledge, encouragement and support.

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

I am not advocating that Spot or anything be mandatory; I am encouraging people to arm themselves with something "just in case" to make the search easier. We are required to leave a flight note with a responsible person (or lodge one or do the SAR thing). That may not happen with a great deal of accuracy due to the recreational nature of our flying - diverting to have a look at an interesting feature, sitting out the weather, hung by the tongue in a mate's hangar etc. Husband and I fly together, if anything happens the next of kin and person with the best knowledge has gone too. This accident has got me thinking about our situation. The PLB is peace of mind, but only if we are able to activate it.

 

 

 

Perhaps someone could research an article for Sport Pilot on the options out there, how they work and what they cost. RAA might be able to do a "members only" deal with a supplier or two. ATSB / AMSA may have some info too.

 

 

[frank marriott]

We are required to leave a flight note with a responsible person

I don't believe it is a "requirement" for VFR PVT Sue. Certainly a recommended procedure which I support and use but I haven't seen it as a requirement - always ready to learn something if you can point me to where it is "required".

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

A positive side to this tragedy: I've done a few trips lately and forgotten to leave a flight plan or send digital breadcrumbs. These will now be added to my preflight checklist.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I am not advocating that Spot or anything be mandatory; I am encouraging people to arm themselves with something "just in case" to make the search easier. We are required to leave a flight note with a responsible person (or lodge one or do the SAR thing). That may not happen with a great deal of accuracy due to the recreational nature of our flying - diverting to have a look at an interesting feature, sitting out the weather, hung by the tongue in a mate's hangar etc. Husband and I fly together, if anything happens the next of kin and person with the best knowledge has gone too. This accident has got me thinking about our situation. The PLB is peace of mind, but only if we are able to activate it. 

 

Perhaps someone could research an article for Sport Pilot on the options out there, how they work and what they cost. RAA might be able to do a "members only" deal with a supplier or two. ATSB / AMSA may have some info too.

Viz, I have attended two AMSA forums at Natfly ( standing room only)... What you learn there is facinating, just how they operate, once the shit hits the fan. They are quite adamant though that we should all be carrying one of the current very affordable ( $280 for Christ sake) beacons for the best world class protection. SPOt also appears to be a good alternative and I am sure we'll be hearing a bit more about that soon. There could also be more Aps coming for those with IPads in the cockpit.Thanks for your imput on this important subject Viz.

 

 

[jetjr]

Spent a lot of time on this for working alone processs.

 

SPOT is a good service BUT its a subscripton to US based company, plenty can go wrong

 

EPIRB is direct service to AMSA and by far the most reliable location system.

 

Need to use the GPS system models for best results

 

IOs etc systems and Spot are great backups but EPIRB is the backbone of SAR systems

 

How about using A SARTIME, free, simple and you can log whatever track you have planned. Can alter over radio on flight or mobile.

 

 

[rick-p]

Nothing, is what it's worth!

 

 

[JG3]

Spent a lot of time on this for working alone processs.SPOT is a good service BUT its a subscripton to US based company, plenty can go wrong

EPIRB is direct service to AMSA and by far the most reliable location system.

 

Need to use the GPS system models for best results

 

IOs etc systems and Spot are great backups but EPIRB is the backbone of SAR systems

 

How about using A SARTIME, free, simple and you can log whatever track you have planned. Can alter over radio on flight or mobile.

The advantage of carrying a SPOT as well as an EPIRB is that there is provision in the SPOT for three levels of urgency. I have mine set up with the lowest level message as "All OK" for marking my position when all is well but I just want to notify of my present position to selected friends. The second level message is "Stranded but uninjured" for when I have landed out and damaged the gear such that I can't take off again. That message only goes to selected persons who I trust to organize local assistance. The third level message is "Injured need urgent assistance". That message goes to the selected friends as well as to SPOT headquarters who organize formal emergency response. I sure like to have those options so don't have to trigger the EPIRB and call in the cavalry for a non-injured stranding. There is also an option, at extra subscription cost, to automatically leave a 'breadcrumb' track of positions every few minutes.

 

SPOT does work in OZ. A fella at our airfield accidentally pushed the emergency button when he just wanted to send the OK message to his wife. Within an hour the police arrived!

 

SPOT uses a different satellite system than the EPIRB so not the same coverage, but it's good to have both options.

 

JG

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

I don't believe it is a "requirement" for VFR PVT Sue. Certainly a recommended procedure which I support and use but I haven't seen it as a requirement - always ready to learn something if you can point me to where it is "required".

In regards to leaving a Flight Note - I did some research, and you are right, for some private VFR flights the Flight Note is only RECOMMENDED. I started in the era where we had to lodge a flight plan and SAR, then it became flight note with a responsible person, now that's only if you are planning:

 

• Over-water flights
   
   
  
• In Designated Remote Areas
   
   
  
• At night proceeding beyond 120NM from the aerodrome of departure
   
   
  

 

 

You need SARTIME or FLIGHT NOTE

 

 

 

All other operations VFR AWK & PVT

 

SARTIME, FLIGHT NOTE or NO NOTIFICATION

 

 

 

Source AirServices, AIP ENR 1.10 - 6 to 7 (page number) 2.20 & 2.21

 

 

 

Personally I think you would be mad not to leave a Flight Note with someone. If hubby & I disappeared it might be a few days before anyone missed us. The Flight Note is pretty flexible, even though there is a recommended form. Simply tell someone where you are going and "if I am not back by ... start looking." Years back AUF/RAA issued us all with a fridge magnet card on which you wrote details of your plane, make, colour etc in permanent marker, and where you were going, ETA, mobile, PLB, destination phone etc in whiteboard marker. Leave that with someone who cares. If you are late they can at least make a few phone calls and hand the information on to searchers before the trail goes cold.

 

 

 

Sue

 

 

[facthunter]

The inefficiency and cost of searches and the current availability of technology dictates we should get our act together in this area. It's in all our interests to be found more quickly. Nev

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

About a decade overdue.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

The inefficiency and cost of searches and the current availability of technology dictates we should get our act together in this area. It's in all our interests to be found more quickly. Nev

Agree Nev....that's why we should all be carrying the latest GPS equipped beacons 100% of the time at a measly ( for what they can do) $285 ..!!

If you don't need it that's great, but when you do you need it bad, same as a seat belt.

 

 

[facthunter]

Cheap as chips. People can die looking for you. Nev

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Agree Nev....that's why we should all be carrying the latest GPS equipped beacons 100% of the time...

...and carry it in your belt, so you can activate it fast, so it's with you when you get clear of your downed aircraft.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

If you don't need it that's great, but when you do you need it bad, same as a seat belt.

Or a chute .......

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

I would like to see us carrying an impact activated device. Some of the expensive searches could have been avoided if one had been carried. Besides the tax payer's funds, there is also the stress on family and friends as the days drag on and a less favourable outcome if injuries are involved.

 

 

 

Some examples of "failure" of ELT/PLB:-

 

The Dragon Rapide - they were eventually found by mobile phone location.

 

This Gympie accident where it didn't activate on impact.

 

An old work-mate at Emerald - he & the other pilot left theirs in the car, located 3 days later using the mobile, both deceased.

 

 

 

My old ELT (now redundant 121 feq) was impact activated, my new PLB is not. It relies on me being able to activate it. As almost all my flying has been in designated remote areas I am in the habit of leaving a Flight Note before departure and confirming my arrival. Even with that, it would resolve a lot of issues if ASMA could home in on a beacon.