Phil Perry Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 I learned over last weekend that one of our flight instructors intends to make an attempt on a current standing Guiness World Record,. . . ( ! ) for the most touch and go landings completed within sixty minutes. I asked him,. . .er,. . .WHY do you want to do this ? . . .he said that he would like to "Put Otherton on the map". . . . ? Sorry, but the last time I looked at a chart,. . .we already are. . . .I dunno, . . perhaps I'm being uncharitable here by taking the pi$$,. . .but why would a bloke who has an expensive aeroplane, and ONLY ONE. . .want to risk it doing a damn fool thing like that ? ? ? I have to assume ( being a cynic of the highest order when aviation stuff like this comes up. . . ) that it's rather more an ego trip, rather than anything to do with places on the map,. . . . but in your only aircraft,. . ./ AND YOU ARE A FULL TIME FLYING INSTRUCTOR FOR A LIVING . . .? I am told that this record ( ? ) is currently held by another pommie, at Barton Airfield - near Manchester UK, in an EV97 Eurostar aircraft ( almost identical to the Sportstar, but 450 Kgs ) In order to exceed the current record, and I really can't be ar$ed to check this out,. . . is 36 landings in the space of one hour. The rules ( ? ) are basically this. From initial takeoff, with a single pilot and no passenger, the aircraft must climb to 1000 feet above the airfield, complete a circuit, ( Size of circuit unspecified. . .) and carry out a touch and go landing where all three wheels must be seen, to contact the ground. The record attempt will be invigilated be TWO authorised members of the Guiness Book of Records team, whose collective decision is final. I asked a question this afternoon, ( as I was drilling some holes to fit U bolts into a right hand turn arrow signal that I've made for the signal square,. . . ). and after watching the "Man" practising for the attempt,. . . I had seen him come screaming down final flapless, very fast, . . .he told me afterwards that on the first two circuits he was travelling down final at "Around" ninety MPH. . . . the thing wouldn't land at all,. . .well, of course it wouldnt, with a high speed like that, the ground effect on a low wing aircraft like would be such that he would have had to Force it onto the grass,. . . not reccommended. . . as in a level attitude, the nosewheel would be subjected to the same, or even more load than the mainwheels, and nosewheels on LSA machines, are for taxying on. . . . The EV97 has a nose leg which is bolted to the firewall, and has bungee suspension, but if you hit it hard and bottom the suspension travel, then the inner tube smacks into the bearing and this cannot be good,. . . . and the attachment isn't exactly brilliant either, . . .how strong is an LSA firewall ? . . .Iv'e seen lots of them bent on Foxbats and a couple of other types as a result of "wheelbarrow" landing abuse. . . . Anyway, after eight circuits, he finished his practice excercise and came over to have a chat to ask me ( ! ) what I thought. . . . he said that he'd decided that the best airspeed to fly final was around 85 MPH, and this enabled him to get onto the runway with all three wheels leaving him a bit of time to get off again . . .the longest runway we have is only 480 metres. . . . Another question. . . . You have to climb to 1000 feet right . . .? "Yes". . . .how do the invigilators KNOW that you've done this, . . .? He didn't know,. . . I suggested a Gopro cam trained onto the alt so that his height agl could be verified, so that is another thing he has got to look into,. . .since the EV97 has a "Bubble" plexiglass cockpit canopy, you don't really want to start using doubkle sided velcro mounts for a gopro onto that as it's polycarbonate, and the glue will damage the surface, and you can't clean it with thinners. . . . I have not really had a good look into the cockpit today, so I don't know how he can mount a verification camera in a position where it could "See" the altimeter clearly, but with altimeter lag to be taken into consideration as well, he might have to actually exceed 1000 feet, to get the alt to actually READ that height. I have not gone into the arithmetic on this idea, but the lad tells me that he HAS to make 1 minute and 54 seconds to EQUAL the current record,. . . . but he said that his fouth and fifth circuits were timed at 1 minute and thirty nine sec,. . . . . I wonder if he's thought of fatigue, and maintaining a super high level of concentration to try this stunt . . . .(as it appeared to me ) his circuits were terribly tight, and basically all over the shop, trying to get the quickest turnaround. . . . I shall report on this some more,. . . . I really and truly hope he doesn't hit the deck a bit hard on circuit 39, and break the noseleg,. . . . at 85 MPH this is not going to be a pretty sight. . . . . . Sorry to sound like a bit of a wet blanket, but I think this is just bordering on silly. . . . Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Wouldn't it be better to try this in some supercharged RV- something that can get to 1000 feet in about 2 1/2 seconds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 Wouldn't it be better to try this in some supercharged RV- something that can get to 1000 feet in about 2 1/2 seconds? Exactly what I said PM,. . . can't see that record standing for very long, unless it's divided into classes of aircraft / power output. . .etc. . . He only has an 80 HP Rotax 912 in that thing,. . .but he says he's going to clean all the $hit of the underside, balance the carbs and polish it all over . . . . NO. . . I'm NOT going to take the mickey. . . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasper Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Ah but you see you miss the Guiness part of the record ... they are not international records for aircraft that are FAI records but are entertainment/interest 'records' that can be created as Guiness think fit based on what people ask them to 'recognize' as a record. If you want class based records then its FAI ... and those records are not really interested in most circuits in hour etc but are more in keeping with fastest, highest, longest and these records are not only limited by what the FAI want to have as records feats but are overseen and monitored. For FAI microlight records see here: http://www.fai.org/record-microlights-paramotors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guernsey Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Records tend to encourage people to break them; in this case it could well be people and aeroplanes that get broken. Alan. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnm Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 can we get some video of that Phil .................. I'd like to see the flare at the landings (or at least the 3 wheel ground contact low flying technique) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pylon500 Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Probably better off with something like a Foxbat. 30lt fuel, 1500+fpm climb, big sideslip back down. All within the confines of the airstrip. Maybe a GR912s Lightwing would be better, harder sideslips . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Given that RAAus are not allowed to exceed 60 or maybe it is 45 deg of bank. Nobody seems to know which is the legal limit, I wonder how he is going to do 360 deg of turn and climb to 1000' plus land the plane, or is he just touching the ground and flying off again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pylon500 Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 45° in pitch, 60° in roll... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted April 22, 2015 Author Share Posted April 22, 2015 Guernsey : I hope you're wrong. . . . the only thing which could go badly wrong, is if he damages the nose leg on one of the high speed touch and go landings, and digs it into the dirt . . . . hope he wears a crash hat just in case. . . John. . . . Yes,. . .it will be recorded on video, . . .by several of our members, . . . Yenn : I've got some time in Eurostar, but can't remember the specs,. . probably 30deg pitch and sixty roll. . . sounds about right for an LSA. .but depends on the POH. Pylon : . . . Yes he probably would,. . .100 horses is marginally better than 80 ? . . . but I dunno about the Foxbat nosewheel though,. . .we've had five failures of these on our site alone over the last few years, probably due to accidental abuse over time, but they do not appear to be overly generous in strength, . . .they taxi VE R Y slowly on a couple of the Peri tracks ( no relation ) as they are a bit undulating ! and they are nearly ALL owned by four person syndicates, are they all honest john with the group when they do the odd wheelbarrer arrival I wonder ( wearing my cynical hat here. . .) His main reason for this "Bit of fun" as he put it, is that since the current Guiness record is held by the same aircraft, he would like to beat it by around five or six circuits. . . .OK, I wish him well, but we'll ahve to shut the airfield for an hour, which in the summer is going to be a bit of a headache, as a lot of our visitors are Microlightist fundamentalists, and don't use radio. Doubt if the CAA would appreciate us applying for a NOTAM, for a nondescript field full of daft amateurs ! He wants to use our longest runway. . .25,. . .which is 357 metres numbers to numbers, with around 30m each end under/overrun, to give him a bit of leeway on the landings. . . .hope the wind is in the right direction on the day then ! Anyway. . . . I'll give you a full report if and when this event is over, safely, I hope. . . . It might well not happen, as our Airfield manager is away on business in the USA at the moment, and he is a senior low level flight display examiner for the CAA,. . .he might not allow it to go ahead.. . .I wonder how the insurers would view it, ? ? ? So many questions ! Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted April 22, 2015 Author Share Posted April 22, 2015 Ah but you see you miss the Guiness part of the record ... they are not international records for aircraft that are FAI records but are entertainment/interest 'records' that can be created as Guiness think fit based on what people ask them to 'recognize' as a record.If you want class based records then its FAI ... and those records are not really interested in most circuits in hour etc but are more in keeping with fastest, highest, longest and these records are not only limited by what the FAI want to have as records feats but are overseen and monitored. For FAI microlight records see here: http://www.fai.org/record-microlights-paramotors Sorry Kasper mate,. . .I forgot to mention you in my last reply post,. . .yes, I'm aware of the difference between a dark frothy pint of beer and the federation aeronautique internationale record system, I don't think my mad instructor person wants to go down that route ! . . . too many obstacles, like er,. . .more experienced pilots with vastly superior aircraft doing vastly superior and challenging things in a vastly superior manner with them. . . . .! ! Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 I think a Pitts special would be the best aircraft to attempt this record. Check out the second touch and go in this video. Less than 2 minutes for off to back down and he wasn't even trying hard..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swJOGon959E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yampy Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Nobody .... There is quite a section of filming edited out at 4:54 .That circuit was well in excess of 2 minutes .. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Nobody .... There is quite a section of filming edited out at 4:54 .That circuit was well in excess of 2 minutes ..David Sorry so it does.... I posted it because I was looking at one of a guy doing circuits in a Pitts Special the other day and I though that he was getting a lot of landings for his time. I couldn't find that video so posted this one and didn't pick up on the edit.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRviator Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 I'm expecting 2000+FPM climb in the RV-9 but getting back down with the FP prop is the problem. Circuit altitude at around 35 seconds, 50 seconds back down perhaps, maybe this is something to have a crack at once the 40 hours is flown off - show what an RV is capable of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted April 23, 2015 Author Share Posted April 23, 2015 I'm expecting 2000+FPM climb in the RV-9 but getting back down with the FP prop is the problem. Circuit altitude at around 35 seconds, 50 seconds back down perhaps, maybe this is something to have a crack at once the 40 hours is flown off - show what an RV is capable of? KR,. . . .I think it's more what YOU are capable of,. . .do you really want to risk your nice new aircraft by Pi$$ing about with it like my silly mate does ? . . . .can't really see the point. If he DOES get his precious record, then everyone will have forgotten about it in a fortnight,. . . but if he stuffs it up,. . .it might take a bit longer than that to fix it methinks. . . . . My view is this, in a nutshell. . . If a pilot feels that he / she would like to push themselves right to the edge of their experience, in an aircraft which is capapble,. . and can maintain the concentration to do something like that for personal reasons,. . . and is willing to take the financial and personal risk involved,. . . then that's fine. . . .I have had a Pitts S2 plus passenger back on the runway in well under 2 minutes,. . .but that was only because the engine started making peculiar "graunching" noises and lost some power . . . . which turned out to be expensive. ( I'm very glad I didn't own it ! ) Phil ( AKA Howard Coward ) PS,. . .I CERTAINLY wouldn't like to attempt it with a hot taildragger on a tarmac strip either ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasper Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 IF you were going to do this I would definitely do it in something overpowered and cheap ... like taking a T85 thruster and giving it an engine transplant along the lines of a 100hp two stroke - then you have the get up and go to get to 1000ft quickly and the drag to get back down quickly to get the wheels down. Or do like the, in my opinion, mad UK microlight comps boys n girls do and take a flexwing trike and throw it at the ground regardless of speed and hope the snoot holds for the hour of abuse. You can pick up an old pegasus xl or raven x for under a thousand pounds and a time expired 912 for around 3000 ... take out the seatbelt and its SSDR 300kg and away you go - up and down at 45mph and you can be in the air and steep climbing turn a few feet up. Not that I want to do this mind. I have no interest in trying to do extreme flight in that direction - much more interested in the FAI records ... except its impossible in this country to do them because the RAA is not affiliated and the organisation that is affiliated is not interested in responding to queries from ultralight pilots :-/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWF Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 I know it is not using the same rules but ..... I remember when .... back in the late 1960's I went flying (as a passenger - not PIC) with a bloke in his C150 at a 5200' airstrip on a small flat island that was about 1.5 miles long and 5' AMSL, off the coast of PNG (9:31S 147:03E). WE DID 30 "CIRCUITS" IN 30 Mins. We even got above 100' a couple of times. WHY? ..... Because we could. Warning: Do not try this at home! DWF 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 But for this rcord 100' will not do. He has to climb to 1000' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted April 24, 2015 Author Share Posted April 24, 2015 IF you were going to do this I would definitely do it in something overpowered and cheap ... like taking a T85 thruster and giving it an engine transplant along the lines of a 100hp two stroke - then you have the get up and go to get to 1000ft quickly and the drag to get back down quickly to get the wheels down.Or do like the, in my opinion, mad UK microlight comps boys n girls do and take a flexwing trike and throw it at the ground regardless of speed and hope the snoot holds for the hour of abuse. You can pick up an old pegasus xl or raven x for under a thousand pounds and a time expired 912 for around 3000 ... take out the seatbelt and its SSDR 300kg and away you go - up and down at 45mph and you can be in the air and steep climbing turn a few feet up. Not that I want to do this mind. I have no interest in trying to do extreme flight in that direction - much more interested in the FAI records ... except its impossible in this country to do them because the RAA is not affiliated and the organisation that is affiliated is not interested in responding to queries from ultralight pilots :-/ Some neat ideas there Sir,. . . . using a hig power / high drag combo WOULD make the job simpler, . . . especially if you could do it on the cheap,. . .not many T/E engines of that type around for that price though,. . . peole keep rebuilding them. Mad Mick's EV97 school airframe has in excess of 3,000 hours on it, with what is essentially the same 80Hp 912 engine. . . . just well serviced and ( normally ) looked after. . . . shame about the FAI / lack of affiliation problem though. . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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